Hi, we are trying to construct on a forum something that IMO is not relevant to the selection of Apogees. Best done by demoing. So far TRL has been very successful and many are using it. NAT seemed to have no problems with the Grands which are an easier load but were in a much smaller room.
Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer
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Hi, we are trying to construct on a forum something that IMO is not relevant to the selection of Apogees. Best done by demoing. So far TRL has been very successful and many are using it. NAT seemed to have no problems with the Grands which are an easier load but were in a much smaller room.
Yes, Kedar, I think that as VTL has refined their circuits -- with better and bigger transformers and with better and bigger power supply capacitors -- the current VTL "sound" is not traditionally "tubey-sounding" (if it ever was -- I don't know myself what early VTLs sounded like) yet it remains on the liquid and slightly rich side of neutral (which is why I like it).
Original full ranges had a 4ohm tap that could be used to drive the midrange/tweeter unit with a tube amp. I had a buddy who used a 250w/ch Audio Research "space heater" for this section and used a Krell stereo "space heater" for the bass ribbon. He had a 27x 17 foot room designed for them (Leo Spiegel consulted on the room) with an offset vaulted ceiling (peak not running down center of room.). No issues with volume, etc.
Lee
Lee
Hello gentlemen...just wanted to chime in here too. Hello Ked, it was great meeting you last week and I'm glad you enjoyed yourself hearing my TSW Duetta Ultimates.
Yes, the restored Apogees that I have used from Rich at TSW (one pair of Divas and 2 pairs of Duettas) seem to be more forgiving of amplifier requirements. Rich told me my Ultimates are essentially about 3.8/4 ohms and don't vary much from there as well as being a good 87db efficient. This is why he has run them in his own rather large (17'x30'+) with nothing but an ARC Ref 75 (KT 120's) with good success. As you know my KT 150 equipped TRL GT 200's are effortless in my 13'x18' room (the KT150's are probably delivering about 250 per channel or thereabout as the amp was originally designated "200" via the much less powerful KT88's in its day...).
As for the TRL line up there are also GT 400's which nowadays run KT150's also (a local friend of mine uses them to drive Sasha 2's) and they are SO strong.... Not to mention the limited edition (9 pairs in the world ) GT 800's used by Gallant_diva in Texas... BTW: a reliable rumor has it that although all who knew him have suffered with the recent tragic passing of Paul Weitzel ["Mr." TRL himself], the legendary company won't necessarily be sharing the same unfortunate fate... As a [multiple] product owner I'm staying optimistic...
Anyway: as for VTL: I agree they are becoming even more reliable than ever before and while never mimicking classic Conrad Johnsons, they are still a liquid, 'tangible' sound that tubes convey. My guess is that they will serve Duettas with aplomb and [restored] Divas / FR's with a solid 300+ wpc model or greater.
Bottom line:will those NAT's run Duettas in a 17' x 40' room ? If they are set up at one end and purposely laid out to service that area as the "Listening field" I'm confident a restored pair will work well. For restored Divas or FR's I agree with Ked that you will need several hundred tube watts per channel for realistic dynamics. Don't forget another alternative that adds tremendous flexibility and essentially pays for itself in options and diversity: Pass XVR1 (first choice) or any GREAT comparable electronic crossover...Love your tube amp but can't quite drive the way you need to? Buy another and get yourself an XVR1... So much to think about! Happy Lissn'n.
Yes, the restored Apogees that I have used from Rich at TSW (one pair of Divas and 2 pairs of Duettas) seem to be more forgiving of amplifier requirements. Rich told me my Ultimates are essentially about 3.8/4 ohms and don't vary much from there as well as being a good 87db efficient. This is why he has run them in his own rather large (17'x30'+) with nothing but an ARC Ref 75 (KT 120's) with good success. As you know my KT 150 equipped TRL GT 200's are effortless in my 13'x18' room (the KT150's are probably delivering about 250 per channel or thereabout as the amp was originally designated "200" via the much less powerful KT88's in its day...).
As for the TRL line up there are also GT 400's which nowadays run KT150's also (a local friend of mine uses them to drive Sasha 2's) and they are SO strong.... Not to mention the limited edition (9 pairs in the world ) GT 800's used by Gallant_diva in Texas... BTW: a reliable rumor has it that although all who knew him have suffered with the recent tragic passing of Paul Weitzel ["Mr." TRL himself], the legendary company won't necessarily be sharing the same unfortunate fate... As a [multiple] product owner I'm staying optimistic...
Anyway: as for VTL: I agree they are becoming even more reliable than ever before and while never mimicking classic Conrad Johnsons, they are still a liquid, 'tangible' sound that tubes convey. My guess is that they will serve Duettas with aplomb and [restored] Divas / FR's with a solid 300+ wpc model or greater.
Bottom line:will those NAT's run Duettas in a 17' x 40' room ? If they are set up at one end and purposely laid out to service that area as the "Listening field" I'm confident a restored pair will work well. For restored Divas or FR's I agree with Ked that you will need several hundred tube watts per channel for realistic dynamics. Don't forget another alternative that adds tremendous flexibility and essentially pays for itself in options and diversity: Pass XVR1 (first choice) or any GREAT comparable electronic crossover...Love your tube amp but can't quite drive the way you need to? Buy another and get yourself an XVR1... So much to think about! Happy Lissn'n.
Interesting Lissnr
Henk's advice to me was the opposite to you
That is, the Duettas would run out of steam in my 18x38x10 (max) space, and Divas would be the best choice, with no issues being driven by 120W/ch single ended tetrodes
Hmm?...
Henk's advice to me was the opposite to you
That is, the Duettas would run out of steam in my 18x38x10 (max) space, and Divas would be the best choice, with no issues being driven by 120W/ch single ended tetrodes
Hmm?...
Hello, Hmmm indeed. Henk is by far THE Expert so IMHO it's just that...my opinion based on my personal experiences which are no match for his... My experiences have told me the [restored] Duettas are significantly easier to drive than the [restored] Divas. Period. Maybe it was as simple as my room length causing the massive woofers to easily overload...or maybe I just couldn't be comfortable with the seeming lack of drivers fully integrating at my close listening distance...or maybe...??? All I know is the Duetta just "synched" like finding the right key for the door lock...and the Diva didn't. More length, as you have, as well as the added width all say Diva will love it up to 85% of its capability but that last 15%...the part that demands seemingly unlimited horsepower...makes me hesitate with only 120... OF Course I may be completely wrong. Sorry for "amplifying" your frustrations...no harm intended...
I don't mean to rain on your parade friend...it's just my overall guesstimate/impression...
I don't mean to rain on your parade friend...it's just my overall guesstimate/impression...
Then buy two more monoblocks and use the Pass Crossover. Or find a way to bridge them to get double output. Put in a real quiet air con.
Apogees with "high output" SET makes zero sense to me and most likely will result in high levels of distortion. Check out the Wavac HE-833 measurements to see what I mean.
I was also thinking the same - why using SET in their non linear zone? IMHO the good things of SET tube sound are due to their intrinsic linear qualities, not to the distortion.
But I have no experience with such situation.
SET's and Ribbons are like living the fantasy : Meeting your dream date who is Both Gorgeous AND Rich... and for some reason she REALLY likes you! OMG. If the stars align and you can pull it off...it's got to be bliss...but underlying power can NOT be sacrificed or it's not for real.
He was using the Apogee active crossover supplied with the FRs of those days. I also used one with my FRs. From what I understand, those crossovers have been handily bettered by more modern offerings.
Lee
I've been thinking of summarizing my thoughts on amp selection - maybe i'll do that this weekend. Too many folks focus on a speaker/amp pair might work rather than designed to work. Its like putting an inline 6 in a Bug - it might fit, but why would you do it in the first place. 'Synergy' in this case isn't a mystery.
Gentlemen, I think we're getting to the nub of it
These restored Apogees CAN work with SETs, but 'can' is not the same as IDEALLY
My gut instinct is that I will get a good enough outcome
But when the music really becomes demanding, a certain glassiness or anaemicness will intervene and be a turn off
OR I could be very wrong
Lissnr, there is a certain irony in that I could have settled for a space very much like your's 18x12x9
But I ended up spending the budget on Henk's Graz Duettas and NAT Transmitters SET upgrade on my loft space
And hence a room/system synergy I've denied myself for the sake of creating a much more extravagant space
Which lends itself to eg AG Trios with NATs
Or sticking with my Zus
... or subverting this self inflicted dilemma and going Apogees with SS...
These restored Apogees CAN work with SETs, but 'can' is not the same as IDEALLY
My gut instinct is that I will get a good enough outcome
But when the music really becomes demanding, a certain glassiness or anaemicness will intervene and be a turn off
OR I could be very wrong
Lissnr, there is a certain irony in that I could have settled for a space very much like your's 18x12x9
But I ended up spending the budget on Henk's Graz Duettas and NAT Transmitters SET upgrade on my loft space
And hence a room/system synergy I've denied myself for the sake of creating a much more extravagant space
Which lends itself to eg AG Trios with NATs
Or sticking with my Zus
... or subverting this self inflicted dilemma and going Apogees with SS...
The trios will sound like a large concert in your size room. The duettas won't give you that, the FRs will, but then you don't have the height for the FRs due to your slope. So it will come down to if you like trio tone vs apogee ribbon tone. The trio factory is the size of your room
"My gut instinct is that I will get a good enough outcome
But when the music really becomes demanding, a certain glassiness or anaemicness will intervene and be a turn off
OR I could be very wrong
Lissnr, there is a certain irony in that I could have settled for a space very much like your's 18x12x9"
There are many things even more dreadful than fear of the uncertain in audioland but for those of us who feel they could be jumping into the deep end of the pool with a heavy bag of gold strapped to their ankles...the suspense is gnawing in your gut. I feel your anguish.
If it makes you feel any better that 12' width of yours would have been cutting it really close to the sidewalls...at 13' I feel mine just makes it [though you could have inched their distance apart a bit closer and still be ok]. I still think the new Duettas are the right move over the Zu's or the AG's because I feel they are so inherently talented when run within their requirements. And FWIW they will appreciate EVERY single little tweak or improvement of equipment up the line from them...You can feel a thousand percent justified in placing expensive improvements into the chain and be rewarded by their full acknowledgment of what you did. Premium tube? Check. Better 'footers' of some sort? Check. New power conditioner, power cable, dedicated lines,room treatment,dac, cartridge,tonearm, ...check check check... new Lightbulbs? (Only kidding!) but you see the point. They will ALWAYS appreciate your attention to detail. (It's a double edged sword of course) but the fact that we're conversing on a site entitled "WHAT'S BEST forum" I'm sure Apogees are in proper company. Jump in...and Happy Lissn'n....PS as I said before: If the tubed thing doesn't work out as well as hoped there ARE plenty of other tube amps that will work beautifully and great SS amps out there these days too so.. you're not at the end of the road...just another intersection.
But when the music really becomes demanding, a certain glassiness or anaemicness will intervene and be a turn off
OR I could be very wrong
Lissnr, there is a certain irony in that I could have settled for a space very much like your's 18x12x9"
There are many things even more dreadful than fear of the uncertain in audioland but for those of us who feel they could be jumping into the deep end of the pool with a heavy bag of gold strapped to their ankles...the suspense is gnawing in your gut. I feel your anguish.
If it makes you feel any better that 12' width of yours would have been cutting it really close to the sidewalls...at 13' I feel mine just makes it [though you could have inched their distance apart a bit closer and still be ok]. I still think the new Duettas are the right move over the Zu's or the AG's because I feel they are so inherently talented when run within their requirements. And FWIW they will appreciate EVERY single little tweak or improvement of equipment up the line from them...You can feel a thousand percent justified in placing expensive improvements into the chain and be rewarded by their full acknowledgment of what you did. Premium tube? Check. Better 'footers' of some sort? Check. New power conditioner, power cable, dedicated lines,room treatment,dac, cartridge,tonearm, ...check check check... new Lightbulbs? (Only kidding!) but you see the point. They will ALWAYS appreciate your attention to detail. (It's a double edged sword of course) but the fact that we're conversing on a site entitled "WHAT'S BEST forum" I'm sure Apogees are in proper company. Jump in...and Happy Lissn'n....PS as I said before: If the tubed thing doesn't work out as well as hoped there ARE plenty of other tube amps that will work beautifully and great SS amps out there these days too so.. you're not at the end of the road...just another intersection.
fyi- the super Zu is slated for release next Munich. i think it would be easier going to horns than panels from Zu but that's a tough decision.
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