Visit to Todd (sbnx) Avantgarde Trio G3 in Parker, Texas

[Hear Here]

So now I am not allowed to answer a specific question, especially when the guy who asked the question comes back a few days later highlighting that question thinking I have not replied to it?

Come off it - the questioner hasn't heard the new Mezzo and neither have you. The thread is about Trios and someone asked if the new Mezzo was being shown at an audio show. That's it. There no benefit to anyone in saying once again that you hate any Avantgarde that isn't a Trio. Lots more people enjoy their Duos than enjoy Trios. They are rightly popular amongst AG buyers.

 

[bonzo75]

Come off it - the questioner hasn't heard the new Mezzo and neither have you. The thread is about Trios and someone asked if the new Mezzo was being shown at an audio show. That's it. There no benefit to anyone in saying once again that you hate any Avantgarde that isn't a Trio. Lots more people enjoy their Duos than enjoy Trios. They are rightly popular amongst AG buyers.

If I heard them on a regular basis like you did, I would have your temper.

 

[nirodha]

Come off it - the questioner hasn't heard the new Mezzo and neither have you. The thread is about Trios and someone asked if the new Mezzo was being shown at an audio show. That's it. There no benefit to anyone in saying once again that you hate any Avantgarde that isn't a Trio. Lots more people enjoy their Duos than enjoy Trios. They are rightly popular amongst AG buyers.

I wholeheartedly agree. I respect anyone’s opinion. We all have preferences but I cannot respect anyone giving an opinion on something without direct experience. About Avantgarde G3… I love what I have heard what these loudspeakers do, be it Trio, GT, SD or Uno. If set up wrong they will bite you (first-hand experience) but if set up right… nirvana!

 

[sbnx]

I don't think anyone expects a $30K Uno to sound as good as an $60K DuoGT. Nor do I think anyone would think that the $80K DuoGT would sound as good as a $250K Trio w/ Spacehorns. This same logic applies to most speaker brands. People have a budget and they have a certain amount of space to put the speakers in. They buy what works for them. Actually, I think a lot of people who have a large budget end up with inferior sound as they try to put a speaker that is too big into their space.

I will add that even though Ked doesn't like the DuoGT it is a much easier speaker to integrate into a room. I was able to get very respectible sound from it in just one day at a show where I had never seen the room before. A lot of people seemed to like it. I don't know if Ked would have liked it or not. It is hard to tell. I have not heard the DuoGT setups that Ked has heard so I have no idea where he is coming from.

 

[bonzo75]

So, I would buy Tannoy 15 inch golds under 10k, used Martin Logan hybrids, Devore Orangutans O96, all under used 10k, over the duos because I think they are sonically much superior. not to mention excellent speakers like Avalons, Stenheims, audionec evo2, and others that have models under the dup prices, plus horns such as hORNS Universum or Tune audio anima. I would buy Trios over these, including G2. Nothing to do with duos not sounding as good as trios.

The logic that a smaller model is not as good as the bigger model, but if you can't afford the bigger model or cannot house it get the smaller one, does not work for all speakers. I can see it working for ML hybrids, for example, many cones and planar. Definitely not for AG, hORNS, Tune audio. All have poor smaller models. In fact, the hORNS symphonia is a hybrid that at much lower price does what duos do better than the duo - still not my choice, but in case anyone feels duos are good check them out.

 

[Lagonda]

While trios might not sound good in certain places due to size, I can’t see how duos would sound good anywhere. The problem for them is not the room

You are definitely not a graduate of the Gandhi school of diplomacy Ked !

 

[Kingrex]

We usually say we want honest opinions to help readers decide what to try, and buy. Yet people are then offended to hear an opinion. They try and say the presentation lacked Diplomacy. I have read, you can use the most polished silver tongue. But a conversation is not based on what you said. Its based on what the other person thinks he heard you say. In other words, no matter how diplomatic you think you are, many people hear through the bologna. Those that don't are unfortunately misslead. Sort of lied to out of a missleading set of words that did too good a job of hiding the real meaning.
Ked gets to the point. He has his personal opinions that not all might like. But if I was looking for a speaker, I might give serious consideration to an O96 instead of a Duo. I get why. I have heard horns that don't do what good horns do. I have heard what a good smaller scale box speaker can do. I would also look at Daedalus. But those have become very expensive. And the used ones many times have a cracked box.

 

[bonzo75]

You are definitely not a graduate of the Gandhi school of diplomacy Ked !

i had kept to myself and answered nirodha politely a few days ago. There was no reason for him and hear here to go there.

 

[thomask]

While trios might not sound good in certain places due to size, I can’t see how duos would sound good anywhere. The problem for them is not the room

I agree with you that it is tricky to set up Trio proper due to its size.

Duo that I had listened during Seoul Audiofest 2023 did sound decent but not worth the sticker price from my personal opinion.

Used Altec A7 could be better value.

I got mine at 700$ but crossed the Canadian border during Corona pendamic which was a lot of hassle.

Many Altec A7 could be got under 5k$.

 

[bonzo75]

But if I was looking for a speaker, I might give serious consideration to an O96 instead of a Duo.

it’s not just a price comparison, sonically the Devores are streets ahead. I just lose respect for those who buy duos because of the price thinking they have a got a close second to the trios.

 

[sbnx]

I am certainly not upset that Ked states his opinions. It is a free forum (as long as there is no personal attacks). He is merely trying to communicate to others that he has heard better sound from the O96 (and others) than the DuoGT. As Mike L. would say that is a data point for people to put in their head and think about.

The trouble, in general, is that a speaker can be made to sound pretty bad or just ok or really great depending on the seup and how much attention to detail the person setting up the system paid to getting music to happen. Let me explain what I have learned about the DuoGT to this point. I am still learning but here goes.

Just like the Trio the tweeter in the DuoGT is set into a sphereical horn. That means that the speaker needs to be pointed pretty much right at the listener. Poor toe-in choice is one reason a lot of the setups can sound bright. People tend to think toeing in the speaker is going to make it bright but that is backwards.

The Duo GT has two 12" woofers and is ported through the bottom. This means that it is extremely responsive to height. Getting the speaker to come up some will vastly clean up bass articulation. It is enough height that one really needs longer spikes. I use shims.

Speaking of height and tweeter -- The tweeter in the DuoGT is just 36" off the floor. A typical listening height is going to be between 38" (on the low side) ot 41". Sitting in those dining charis at a show my ear height is 45". For the same reasons stated above on toe-in the tweeter really needs to be pointed in the vicinity of the same height as the ear. Raising the speaker to help bass articulation helps this also. But then the speaker is going to need some rake.

Then there is the crossover point between the woofer bin and the horn. I am still playing with this some but the default is 170Hz with a 24 dB/Oct Butterworth Filter. Surprisingly, I am exploring the 12 dB/Octave filter with some nice benefits. TBD if I will leave it like this.

Do you see my point? Details apply to ANY speaker. Not the specifics I stated above but the specifics for how THAT specific speaker is designed and responds. It is very easy to set this (or any) speaker up by just pointing them straight ahead, relatively flat on the spikes and maybe even shoved up against a wall. In this case one would be listening to the room as sound is simply sprayed around everywhere. To me, going into a room like this is like a "noise box". I think some like this type of sound as it is very uniform around the room. I consider this uniformly bad sound. But to each their own.

 

[bonzo75]

I have never heard the trio sound bad except at shows. And my negative comments about speakers are never from shows

I have heard duos with SETs, tape, various amps, including in same room as trios at AG factory and with the big bass horns

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Just like the Trio the tweeter in the DuoGT is set into a sphereical horn. That means that the speaker needs to be pointed pretty much right at the listener. Poor toe-in choice is one reason a lot of the setups can sound bright. People tend to think toeing in the speaker is going to make it bright but that is backwards.

this was my negative experience with Duo's last year at the Seattle show in June. I went looking forward to hearing an AG speaker with the I-tron, and in spite of going back multiple times, it was never quite right. and moving around the room side to side or front to back it was never really comfortable. and they were really trying to sort it out too. I did hear super amounts of detail and dynamic life. the room was huge, and very wide, maybe 40-50 feet, and 35 feet deep. so that was not helping.

so honestly I just dismiss that experience as not really any value for any conclusion. I'll be at Axpona and will listen again with an open mind and ear.

The Duo GT has two 12" woofers and is ported through the bottom. This means that it is extremely responsive to height. Getting the speaker to come up some will vastly clean up bass articulation. It is enough height that one really needs longer spikes. I use shims.

Speaking of height and tweeter -- The tweeter in the DuoGT is just 36" off the floor. A typical listening height is going to be between 38" (on the low side) ot 41". Sitting in those dining charis at a show my ear height is 45". For the same reasons stated above on toe-in the tweeter really needs to be pointed in the vicinity of the same height as the ear. Raising the speaker to help bass articulation helps this also. But then the speaker is going to need some rake.

Then there is the crossover point between the woofer bin and the horn. I am still playing with this some but the default is 170Hz with a 24 dB/Oct Butterworth Filter. Surprisingly, I am exploring the 12 dB/Octave filter with some nice benefits. TBD if I will leave it like this.

Do you see my point? Details apply to ANY speaker. Not the specifics I stated above but the specifics for how THAT specific speaker is designed and responds. It is very easy to set this (or any) speaker up by just pointing them straight ahead, relatively flat on the spikes and maybe even shoved up against a wall. In this case one would be listening to the room as sound is simply sprayed around everywhere. To me, going into a room like this is like a "noise box". I think some like this type of sound as it is very uniform around the room. I consider this uniformly bad sound. But to each their own.

agree.

 

[sbnx]

this was my negative experience with Duo's last year at the Seattle show in June.

Did they have the speakers Toe’d in or generally pointed straight ahead?

thanks.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Did they have the speakers Toe’d in or generally pointed straight ahead?

thanks.

as best as I can recall, they tried different toe in angles....but mostly toed in. the sound was quite different how far back you were. more than any speaker system I recall being. even one seat either way side to side was quite different. my guess was that there was multiple factors going on beyond the scope of the room set up skills on hand.

 

[Kingrex]

Sbnx, your touching on an important point. A lot of people purchase quality and quite expensive audio gear. They want it to sound good. But I think the pool of people that then go to the level of detail in setup required to get the very best performance is very small. For many its the dealer delivers the speaker and does an initial setup. Then comes back a week later to tweak it. The way your explaining the Duo makes me think the majority of people are going to enjoy a different speaker that is more forgiving.

 

[sbnx]

Sbnx, your touching on an important point. A lot of people purchase quality and quite expensive audio gear. They want it to sound good. But I think the pool of people that then go to the level of detail in setup required to get the very best performance is very small. For many its the dealer delivers the speaker and does an initial setup. Then comes back a week later to tweak it. The way your explaining the Duo makes me think the majority of people are going to enjoy a different speaker that is more forgiving.

This is an unfortunate reality of our hobby. People tend to take the dealer setup as if it is perfect and somehow set in stone. Then they try and tweak it from there using cables or swapping boxes or whatever. A favorite seems to be to fix brightness or sibilance with either speaker cables or the DAC. In reality this can almost certainly be resolved by speaker position. Not what the dealer wants to hear as he/she benefits from selling the audiophile a "fix" for their issue.

I think almost all speakers can sound "good". I even noted this during my Trio setup journey. I had them just roughly placed on their tripod and had a central image. The sound was big and round. It was like listening with a huge warm blanket of sound. The trouble comes when we want to push the performance envelope and get what we actually paid for. The closer we get the more exacting things become. This is not only true of Avantgarde but also true of every speaker I have ever setup. I will name Wilson as an example because so many people have them. A lot of people complain that their speakers are "bright". Especially back when they had the Titanium tweeter. Setup properly and there is no brighness at all. OR the speakers could be very much de-tuned to achieve "good" sound -- hardly what someone who just paid $40K, $70K, $130K or $250K for a pair of speakers wants.

 

[Audiohertz2]

it’s not just a price comparison, sonically the Devores are streets ahead. I just lose respect for those who buy duos because of the price thinking they have a got a close second to the trios.

Wait Devores ..!

So a basic 2way high school project loudspeaker 101, suffering from edge diffraction and baffle beaming best an expensive superlative Horn design like the Duo ..!

Wow , ruff crowd ....!

 

[Young Skywalker]

Wait Devores ..!

So a basic 2way high school project loudspeaker 101, suffering from edge diffraction and baffle beaming best an expensive superlative Horn design like the Duo ..!

Wow , ruff crowd ....!

Agreed! The DeVores can sound pleasant with certain kinds of music in a variety of listening spaces, but high fidelity to anything the designs are not. They are an “as you like it” speaker as opposed to the pursuit of truth (be it live or recorded) across multiple music genres.

 

[Al M.]

Agreed! The DeVores can sound pleasant with certain kinds of music in a variety of listening spaces, but high fidelity to anything the designs are not. They are an “as you like it” speaker as opposed to the pursuit of truth (be it live or recorded) across multiple music genres.

I have only heard DeVore Gibbon minimonitors (at home), but they sounded colored as hell. Everything had this pervasive wooden cabinet coloration. It was fun for 10 minutes, but after that purely annoying.

I hope the larger speakers are of better construction, but my expectations are not high. Cabinet colorations are much easier to tame in small speakers, so if those already flunked the test...But I'll keep an open mind.