Visit to Todd (sbnx) Avantgarde Trio G3 in Parker, Texas

[Carlos269]

wow...thank you for weighing here. I know you design and produce, so helpful. I heard the same and (pure guesswork) seem to hear the same in videos. The one exception is Ultimate Audio's set of videos.

1. Is there anyway you could put an elastomer 'ring' around the OUTSIDE of the middle of the mouth of the horn? Would that even make sense?
2. I have read that people say the paint job of the horns matters and the matte finish sounds much better than the beautiful polished gloss. Does that make sense to you?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Another set-up with the horns pretty much up against the front wall. I think it is traditional AG set-ups like this from which casual auditioners conclude (mistakenly) that "horns don't soundstage."

 

[LL21]

Beton art audio tyrexx.
Housing carbon concrete~ 600lbs 2x21"woofer from 14 - 140hz
closed housing no ports very good no flow noise at high volume agile fast response never heard anything before.the company offers a measuring service at your home ~500€

TYREXX Mega Subwoofer - 2 x 21" Zoll - 260 kg Carbonbeton

TYREXX - Subwoofer System der Superlative mit bis zu 5000 Watt Systemleistung - VERSCHREIBUNGSPFLICHTIG !

betonart-audio.de

TYREXX

​

UNIQUE BASS DYNAMICS & EARTH VIBRATION impulsive – dusty dry – mega powerful
R

Uniquely rigid housing made from 260 kg carbon concrete​

R

30 mm carbon concrete for maximum contour & impulse fidelity - bass as if chiseled into concrete​

R

Latest Tetracoil technology:​

Extremely free of acoustic artifacts and the enormous low distortion set a new benchmark!
R

Harmonizes perfectly with horn speakers - Avantgarde Acoustic, ACAPELLA, Odeon...​

R

Frequency response: 14 Hz - 140 Hz (depends on setup)​

R

More homogeneous sound distribution because the sound is emitted as a cylindrical wave​

R

AUDIO SMART CONTROL​

10 presets for your individual sound experience

Presets allow you to easily switch preset parameters to suit your room conditions or listening habits
R

2.0 - 6.0 kW for an ultimate sound experience​

R

Closed housing without flow noise​

R

Perfect room adaptation thanks to the DSP sound processor​

R

H 160 / W 58 / D 40​

R

from €17,800​

• plus €250 to €450 for delivery & assembly on site
• On request, plus €450 for individual on-site measurement

 

[DasguteOhr]

View attachment 127447

Another set-up with the horns pretty much up against the front wall. I think it is traditional AG set-ups like this from which casual auditioners conclude (mistakenly) that "horns don't soundstage."

Well, a horn doesn't have a soundstage like a dipole speaker, the radiation characteristics and physics dictate it. In the end, it's a matter of taste, every principle has its advantages and disadvantages. I had been listening to horns for years and had a lot of fun with them. I wanted a bit of both and ended up at openbaffe..thats life

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Another set-up with the horns pretty much up against the front wall. I think it is traditional AG set-ups like this from which casual auditioners conclude (mistakenly) that "horns don't soundstage."

not sure you can assign the cause of great soundstaging of Todd's G3's primarily to the mid room position. Todd's rational for that location was for bass coherence and smoothness. maybe even space for his WB sub's.

I did not hear or read that sound staging with his speakers nearer the front wall was less. my guess is that there are a wide variety of choices for top level sound staging more based on the particular room and maybe bass coherence, than any absolute percentage forward or backward. especially considering how horn drivers project sound.

maybe Todd @sbnx can comment on this? apologize if I missed this explanation.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Well, a horn doesn't have a soundstage like a dipole speaker, the radiation characteristics and physics dictate it.

Of course I agree with this. But the depth and the sound-staging I heard in Todd's room was very familiar to me and to what I am accustomed in terms of a great sense of depth and the sound-stage developing wholly behind the plane of the speakers.

Unlike with horns up against the front wall (in which configuration the horns seem like they are projecting forward the sound), Todd's speakers utterly and completely disappeared as the apparent source of the sound.

 

[Audiohertz2]

I’m with Ron on this , the increased distance from the front wall increases depth perception because of the added delay of the return field to the main increasing the ambient field ..


Regards

 

[sbnx]

Yes, I know...i am still trying to find any more current descriptions of the materials they are now using. nothing so far. And yes, could certainly do. I feel like an HRS-like material would be really good here.

I think Armin talks a little about this in the “factory tour” video they did

 

[Elliot G.]

True on the arena venues but some artist can even conquer these spaces. Still it is not real and most popular music live recordings are in the mix and not what you might have heard when you attended.

I do agree that if you pay attention to the setup of your system/gear/ room you can enjoy and listen to all musical pieces. You used the word excellent, what does that mean to you, spending the most or carefully purchasing components that compliment each other and then setting them up properly in the room you have (dedicated or otherwise)?

I get your point on the solo violin and the piano but where is the weak spot? Recording, system, room or setup. Perhaps all of the above.

I never mentioned price. I do have some heavyweight pieces. I import and sell some heavyweight items. I got involved with all of them strictly because of what they were able to do period. I don't say bad things about brands and won't here however they are not all equal and in many ways not even close to what I deem to be important/excellent or realistic. I don't grind gear and to be honest stuff usually finds me as I don't look for anything. Even getting involved with Gobel was a weird circumstance that just played out.
I am a strong believer in system set up and the integration of the gear into the room that is being used. Many of audio issues are just that the room and the systems interactions . People want to blame the gear when many times its the interaction in the room that is the issue.
I am not looking for the weakness of the recordings but rather the strength.
In everything of quality we get involved in we don't need to prove every single minute thing.
I can go to a new restaurant and know the food is good or great or insane. I can go to purchase a new car and know that the vehicle is amazing or just average. This education comes from experience and knowledge and they are both the cornerstone of audio as well.
I m not special or better I am just experienced and I know what I am trying to achieve. I have learned to a large extent what causes certain things/sounds to happen and why and where they come from. It comes from many years of screwing around with my gear, my stores gear and clients and friends gear and all those rooms.
I don't get tied up in knots with all the possible excuses and exceptions. I know what a piano sounds like. I know what a violin sounds like. I have heard so many of them up close , unamplified and very personal. Those are tools that I can use, someone else may use other criteria, maybe they can do it better . I want to learn, always have, and had some great teachers and contemporaries that I have worked and compared results with.
Audio is to me music and music is joy, emotion and a large degree of escapism.
I want to say this with all due respect to everyone. I don't believe that all the opinions that are expressed by the press, reviewers, manufactures', users, designers are accurate or even correct.
I say this because so many seem desperate for guidance and reinforcement of their opinions and purchases.
I did my thing, I got my result, some may like it others may not but I don't spend anytime worrying about what I can't control.
Music is glorious and irreplaceable for me , I don't go a day without it.
That's all I try to achieve and it takes a lot of work and dedication to get there. I totally respect people like Todd, Mike, Alan E. and others who did the work. They both have mostly different things than I do and I think that's freeking GREAT. I love hearing someone system and getting thrilled by the result. Different is cool but it still sounds
like the real thing.
Things that I can't prove but I just know they are true LOL
Enjoy

 

[LL21]

Earlier AG horns were made of ABS plastic.

https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/287/index.html

"...The horn is made of ABS, a material chosen for its neutral resonance behavior, resistance to temperature- and humidity-induced changes, and because it can be manufactured to close tolerances—all factors that are critical to performance. The only downside is that the manufacturing process is quite expensive...."

I think Armin talks a little about this in the “factory tour” video they did

In this video from April 2023, Armin of Avantgarde describes the materials as a special blend of ABS (automotive plastic...like for dashboards) where they create it with a foam-like inner which creates an inert damping characteristic so it does not create sympathetic vibrations nor contribute to the sound emanating from the horn. Start at 43:30 to see this part about how they manufacture the horns and what they are made of and why...

Earlier, he also states the horns the founder created 30 years ago are identical to the ones used today which I found interesting.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Of course I agree with this. But the depth and the sound-staging I heard in Todd's room was very familiar to me and to what I am accustomed in terms of a great sense of depth and the sound-stage developing wholly behind the plane of the speakers.

Unlike with horns up against the front wall (in which configuration the horns seem like they are projecting forward the sound), Todd's speakers utterly and completely disappeared as the apparent source of the sound.

some people like the frontstage sound, the direct dynamics of the horn. I think your impression is more due to the room acoustics and the positioning in the middle of the room than to the horn speaker. There are few reflections that disturb the image reproduction. how far away do you sit from the back wall there to listen to music.

 

[Al M.]

First of all if i understand correctly Todd has a CH DAC in his system and not the Wadax dac like in the Ultimate audio vid .
Wadax takes all hardness out of digital
Kondo always sweetens things but lacks on overall neutrality with other music being played imv.

Sorry, you don’t need a Wadax to have no hardness in digital. My humble Yggdrasil LIM ("Less is More") DAC does the trick too, while not being tuned to be artificially "pleasant" or "soft" (and it even has no tubes). You just have feed it a good signal (in my case via reclocker after CD transport using great cables) and feed it good power (absolutely essential). Details are in my signature. Many people just have sucky digital that is not optimized.

I am sure Todd's CH Precision DAC does the job in that respect just fine, too.

 

[sbnx]

My thoughts on imaging and soundstaging. Some of this is basic but I like to be clear on definitions as I have had several instances where me and another person would use the same term but come to find out we had different definitions for this term.

When setting up speakers imaging just "happens" and come along for the ride. When the speakers are aligned properly for tone and timing we natually get imaging. These images are spread around depening on the path length of the sound from the instument/singer to the two stero microphones. Some of the images are big, like a clarinet or a vocalist. But some of the "images" are very small, such as the "air" inside a concert hall. The more aligned the speakers the more stable the images. I know we have all heard systems where the muscians in an orchestra seem to be moving around a lot. For example the clarinet sometimes sits in his seat and sometimes goes to visit the violins and sometimes goes to visit the horns. This is frequency dependent imaging and is a result of improper speaker alignment.

The collection of all of the sonic images is the soundfield or soundstage. The sound field (The collection of everything) should extend from wall to wall and floor to ceiling. The perception of distand (depth) comes from the relative loudness of recorded instruments. If the speakers tone (Frequency response) is messed up then the depth will be off.

I always have issues with the speakers being close (less than 5 feet) to the front wall as my eyes and my ears don't agree on how far away something is becasue I am staring at the wall. If you have speakers close to the front wall I would suggest listening in the dark. This will help. I have heard fantastic soundstage with the speakers relatively close to the front wall. (Wall to wall --- floor to ceiling) but depth always seemed like it was climbing the wall rather than extending out into flat space.

The Trios are about 13 feet or so form the front wall. My ear is about 11 feet from the tweeter. And my ear is about 5' from the rear wall.

The soundfield from the Trios extends from the speaker backward and is fully populated with instruments. It is like I am looking at an orchestra. But there is also sound in the upper left and right corners (or anywhere else) if it is on the recording. WIth that said the sound is very direct. You can very easily feel the music.

I have heard some people say "horns don't image" or they "don't image well" or "Horns don't have depth" etc. None of this is true for the Avantgarde Trio. However, set them up poorly and all bets are off on what kind of sound you will hear (or see).

 

[Al M.]

2. I have read that people say the paint job of the horns matters and the matte finish sounds much better than the beautiful polished gloss. Does that make sense to you?

Todd's Trios appear to be painted in matte.

 

[sbnx]

Sorry, you don’t need a Wadax to have no hardness in digital. My humble Yggdrasil LIM ("Less is More") DAC does the trick too, while not being tuned to be artificially "pleasant" or "soft" (and it even has no tubes). You just have feed it a good signal (in my case via reclocker after CD transport using great cables) and feed it good power (absolutely essential). Details are in my signature. Many people just have sucky digital that is not optimized.

I am sure Todd's CH Precision DAC does the job in that respect just fine, too.

I personally think the CH DAC does a fantastic job. (I also have the T1 clock along with the Argeto Flow clock cable.) But perhaps we should defer to Ron as he is an analog guy so I would trust his opinion on whether he perceived any digital hardness.

 

[sbnx]

Todd's Trios appear to be painted in matte.

Yes, they are Matte. A grey color they chose to call "Eargasmic".

I have no idea whether gloss or matte would sound better. If you had asked me before I started the Trio Journey I would have emphatically stated that there is no way this matters. However, now I am certain that it does matter. But without haveing both there is no way to know which is better.

From a fluid flow perspective I can see that the matte finish would casue a little turbulence in the air flow at the boundary. Why this would be better or worse I don't know.

 

[Al M.]

Yes, they are Matte. A grey color they chose to call "Eargasmic".

I have no idea whether gloss or matte would sound better. If you had asked me before I started the Trio Journey I would have emphatically stated that there is no way this matters. However, now I am certain that it does matter. But without haveing both there is no way to know which is better.

From a fluid flow perspective I can see that the matte finish would casue a little turbulence in the air flow at the boundary. Why this would be better or worse I don't know.

Thanks for the confirmation. I like the name "Eargasmic".

In my experience, gloss with its abundant reflections is the enemy of good audio. I have removed all gloss from my room. Even covering the, unfortunately gloss, paint of my JL Audio subs with rubber mats was essential to remove audible distortion induced by the gloss paint (currently the subs are not in use).

I am puzzled by the current trend towards gloss in high-end audio. From a sonic perspective it makes no sense to me.

 

[sbnx]

For a long time people have associated a gloss finish with luxury and costly. That is starting to change in some markets like high end cars.

 

[Al M.]

Wow Ron! Great job! I don't do audio videos, maybe 3 a year if something really interests me, because they are usually a huge waste of time ....

But you ask REALLY Intelligent questions!

And in this case you got really intelligent answers from Sbnx!

+ 1

 

[Al M.]

For a long time people have associated a gloss finish with luxury and costly. That is starting to change in some markets like high end cars.

Yes, there are some great non-gloss finishes on some high end cars.