Volume and Listening

[wil]

I'm moving the volume talk that was derailing the Magico thread here.

My experience is that there is not a particular "ideal" volume for listening. A low volume and high volume level can give equally rewarding experiences. Some systems perform better than others at low volumes and at high volumes, so given the system and the room, there is a given range that works.

When the discussions turn to db levels, the discussion becomes pretty meaningless unless there is a reference regarding the SPL meter used. Also, the db range needs to be cited, as well as whether measuring at dbA or dbC. Saying "I like to listen at 75 db or 100 db" is completely meaningless unless you happen to be listening to something with no dynamic range. I use an iPhone with the "DB Meter" app.

My room is large 15x45'. I listen typically around a 75 avg with peaks in the 90's. Sometimes I'll listen as low as an average in the 60's. Sometimes I'll really crank it up to higher levels with peaks above 100db particularly if I'm near the 30-40' depth of the room which creates an experience where the room is more "involved." This can create a more live performance facsimile which can promote the illusion of “they are here.”

@Cableman brought up something called RRV. I'm guessing it stands for Room Reference Volume? I've asked the question, which has so far gone un-answered, as to how there can be a room reference volume which doesn't vary by recoding?

 

[Rhapsody]

I personally have never heard of one volume for a particular room. Especially when you have different sources (R2R, TT, cdp, streaming) ALL which can have different gain levels which will have an effect on volume.

Then throw in the fact that different recordings were recorded at different levels in the recording studios. Additionally personal listening volume preference, not even taking into account different hearing sensitivity of individuals, will have an effect on where the volume gets set for each individual.

There are MANY recordings that the volume has to be turned up several clicks to get to the appropriate playback level and a few that the volume control has to be turned down as the recordings have been recorded at an unusual high level.

One volume that works for all recordings in a given room/system might work for some, it certainly doesn't work for me.

 

[Cableman]

I'm moving the volume talk that was derailing the Magico thread here.

My experience is that there is not a particular "ideal" volume for listening. A low volume and high volume level can give equally rewarding experiences. Some systems perform better than others at low volumes and at high volumes, so given the system and the room, there is a given range that works.

When the discussions turn to db levels, the discussion becomes pretty meaningless unless there is a reference regarding the SPL meter used. Also, the db range needs to be cited, as well as whether measuring at dbA or dbC. Saying "I like to listen at 75 db or 100 db" is completely meaningless unless you happen to be listening to something with no dynamic range. I use an iPhone with the "DB Meter" app.

My room is large 15x45'. I listen typically around a 75 avg with peaks in the 90's. Sometimes I'll listen as low as an average in the 60's. Sometimes I'll really crank it up to higher levels with peaks above 100db particularly if I'm near the 30-40' depth of the room which creates an experience where the room is more "involved." This can create a more live performance facsimile which can promote the illusion of “they are here.”

@Cableman brought up something called RRV. I'm guessing it stands for Room Reference Volume? I've asked the question, which has so far gone un-answered, as to how there can be a room reference volume which doesn't vary by recoding?

Respectfully I have answered that questioned many times when asked. You are misunderstanding if you say that that some systems perform better at low versus high levels.
A decent system with at its heart a decent amp which synergises well with a decent speaker should be set to the RRV, then all types all genres will play well with all the dynamics the headroom the soundstage but also the micro detail / resolution you might want. Playing at the wrong room level compromises the music and masks the fine detail/reduces the dynamism in the recording. The music can’t breath.

 

[andromedaaudio]

First of all i agree completely with rhapsody , nothing more to say .
Which means i also completely disagree with Cableman

Secondly my ultimate high end audio experience has always been listening in a noise isolated good sounding room , and cranck up the volume
High end audio then distinguishes itself completely from regular audio due to resonance free LS and amps which deliver perfect control

 

[Kingrex]

I can make it play louder, but I generally find the mid 76db or so is quite nice, the music is alive and my equipment is in a good place. Sure I can push it into the 80s. But it does not make the music "Better". Hidden this or that is not revealed. Its just louder. And louder means more chance of damaging your hearing. So I play where it comes to life and call it good.

Having said that. If I had a larger purpose built room that allowed the room to react properly with the speakers and create more a sense of immersion into the soundstage, I may play louder. But I don't. My system, my room, my gear tells me where the sweet spot starts and I stay in the low end of the comfort zone.

FWIW, I'm in my mid 50s and an audiologist said my hearing is excellent. I protect it as best I can. Again, I don't push it with the volume.

 

[loki1957]

I find myself turning the music up during a song that engages me. Yes I like my music loud.

 

[Rhapsody]

This is the thing, we ALL have our preferences regarding the volume setting and how we listen to and enjoy our music. There is no right or wrong. It's only right when each listener is listening at the level that they prefer. VS someone telling everyone to listen at a certain level, because it's right for them.....geeeezzzzz

 

[spiritofmusic]

I wonder what Nigel Tufnel of Spinal Tap would think when confronted with RRV on his amp...and then gaze longingly at "11"...

 

[andromedaaudio]

I like SRV not RRV

 

[andromedaaudio]

 

[K3RMIT]

Let me throw a curve into this. many times a given volume is better for a given track / album. now how we arrive at this is subjective. my room is roughly 20/55 deep. where I sit matters in how the presentation appears. louder at further back gives me the band is playing over there. But sitting closer gives me the band is here. i arrive at wjat I think is a good loudness by sampling the low to loud parts of a track or album. i also feel music must grow in size again the volume that still allows for me the speakers not be heard directly and least room interaction as well. of course we all play too loud at times for me it’s a given but if we want the sound to be most realistic I think my post may be something to try.

 

[spiritofmusic]

It's ironic that the stuff that is both mastered the loudest, and is consistently loud even in places where it should be quieter (hallo Muse, Metallica, Coldplay etc), needs to be played loud to have any semblance of musical realism, dynamic life, yet sounds awful loud, and not so loud, whereas stuff that is mastered with a real feel for life-like dynamics (take your pick from the Golden Age of recording, pre Loudness Wars), can absolutely be enjoyed over a range of volumes, even reasonably quietly.

 

[Cableman]

I can make it play louder, but I generally find the mid 76db or so is quite nice, the music is alive and my equipment is in a good place. Sure I can push it into the 80s. But it does not make the music "Better". Hidden this or that is not revealed. Its just louder. And louder means more chance of damaging your hearing. So I play where it comes to life and call it good.

Having said that. If I had a larger purpose built room that allowed the room to react properly with the speakers and create more a sense of immersion into the soundstage, I may play louder. But I don't. My system, my room, my gear tells me where the sweet spot starts and I stay in the low end of the comfort zone.

FWIW, I'm in my mid 50s and an audiologist said my hearing is excellent. I protect it as best I can. Again, I don't push it with the volume.

My room is small. It’s not particularly suited for the precious listening experience. Yet the sound achieved? Oh my!!! One of the key reasons I believe is because I through much trial and error have discovered the RRV. Music can climb from a whisper to a scream apparently with ease. It can play low when the music is ‘low’ it can play high when the music is ‘high’ no matter what you throw at it it never appears to run out of steam is crushed or is too ‘soft’.

In a poorly set WRV ( wrong room volume) detail is lost dynamics are crushed and certain frequencies are abnormally exaggerated.

It so happens one of those refuting my RRV experience was keen to berate me for not posting dB levels in my room. I could but what’s the point. Clearly for some it’s just a pathetic points scoring exercise. But let me say this. I happily listen often at louder volumes than you in a smaller zero- room-treatment room. For this I get the tonality right. The resolution clear. The dynamics big and small as appropriate. Until I ‘discovered’ RRV I didn’t know what I was missing- musically speaking.
Enjoy the Music.

 

[Cableman]

I wonder what Nigel Tufnel of Spinal Tap would think when confronted with RRV on his amp...and then gaze longingly at "11"...

He’d want everything louder than everything else.

 

[Cableman]

It's ironic that the stuff that is both mastered the loudest, and is consistently loud even in places where it should be quieter (hallo Muse, Metallica, Coldplay etc), needs to be played loud to have any semblance of musical realism, dynamic life, yet sounds awful loud, and not so loud, whereas stuff that is mastered with a real feel for life-like dynamics (take your pick from the Golden Age of recording, pre Loudness Wars), can absolutely be enjoyed over a range of volumes, even reasonably quietly.

Try playing Joni Mitchells Morningtown then Holts Planet Symphony ‘Jupiter’ both at the RRV then tell me you still don’t think you can play the latter ‘loud’ and the former ‘reasonably quiet’, and both sound absolutely spot on at the RRV

 

[dcathro]

I find that I can enjoy music from very quiet (late night listening) to relatively loud for most music. How loud is dictated by both the music and the room. Classical and acoustic music has a natural level, above which sounds artificial. Some electronic music like Shpongle can be played quite loud. There is a point where the room overloads.

I find that some of my audio friends like to play way louder than I do, some at a level that I find excessive.

 

[Cableman]

I find that I can enjoy music from very quiet (late night listening) to relatively loud for most music. How loud is dictated by both the music and the room. Classical and acoustic music has a natural level, above which sounds artificial. Some electronic music like Shpongle can be played quite loud. There is a point where the room overloads.

I find that some of my audio friends like to play way louder than I do, some at a level that I find excessive.

The room is a key component in every system. The RRV is a key component for setting that system.

 

[dcathro]

Try playing Joni Mitchells Morningtown then Holts Planet Symphony ‘Jupiter’ both at the RRV then tell me you still don’t think you can play the latter ‘loud’ and the former ‘reasonably quiet’, and both sound absolutely spot on at the RRV

Sorry Cableman, but I am lost as to what you mean by RRV. Are you saying:
- there is one volume position on your preamp that should not be shanged; or
- there is one acoustic level (e.g. 85db) at which all recordings should be played; or
- each recording has it's own level at which it will sound right; or
- each room has a level at which it performs best; or
- some combination of the above; or
- something else?

Thanks

David

 

[wil]

Respectfully I have answered that questioned many times when asked. You are misunderstanding if you say that that some systems perform better at low versus high levels.
A decent system with at its heart a decent amp which synergises well with a decent speaker should be set to the RRV, then all types all genres will play well with all the dynamics the headroom the soundstage but also the micro detail / resolution you might want. Playing at the wrong room level compromises the music and masks the fine detail/reduces the dynamism in the recording. The music can’t breath.

Respectfully I have answered that questioned many times when asked.

Cableman, I spent a good 10 minutes searching back through all your comments on the Magico thread, and I could find no answer to the pertinent question. That is, how can you set a single ideal volume level for different recordings in your room when the volume of various recordings vary widely? If you’ve explained it before, can you explain it again? Thanks

 

[Cableman]

Sorry Cableman, but I am lost as to what you mean by RRV. Are you saying:
- there is one volume position on your preamp that should not be shanged; or
- there is one acoustic level (e.g. 85db) at which all recordings should be played; or
- each recording has it's own level at which it will sound right; or
- each room has a level at which it performs best; or
- some combination of the above; or
- something else?

Thanks

David

Hi David

once the RRV is set it should not be changed. Apologies if I wasn’t clear.