VYGER turntable, VISION tonearm, TITAN vacuum controller, and ME

[Rhapsody]

The idea that the details of how the new VYGER control system works can and will be explained in private conversations to interested potential VYGER customers is rather "curious".
From what BjörnÖsten hinted this Titan is supposed to be an advanced compressor control algorithm that learns how to deliver the precise amount of air for the system based on multiple factors.
I hope we can clearly understand in the future what the factors are and how they affect the operation of the machine.

From his words we can understand the effort put into making the purpose of this implementation be reliable, coherent and able to guarantee the functioning of the turntable over time.

However, it is important that when everything is ready, the operation can be explained clearly and exhaustively to the audiophile user. Now if it is true that not all users have to be physicists or engineers, it is equally true that even very complex topics can be explained. There are many examples in this sense and I mention one that is in history or the famous publication "Relativity: Divulgative Exposure" by Einstein. With it, despite the topics covered, he addressed a wider audience, and not his fellow scientists, and surprisingly managed to make everyone understand the meaning of his studies.

Now, given the due differences, I believe that in this context the same can and must be done not only to understand the reasons and effects of these implementations but also to avoid increasing doubts about the ease of use that has always accompanied the fame of this turntable.

I think the undoubted qualities of this product deserve this attention. I wish everyone involved a good job.

As I said there are patent considerations that are under review at this time. Although Bjorn/VYGER will explain the main principles being utilized our main purpose is to demonstrate the sound quality provided by the VYGER turntables, which we are in process of setting up demo sites in various locations in the US as well as in Europe.

VYGER is in the business to develop, sell and support the products that it delivers to the marketplace.

Exactly how VYGER decides to provide information regarding its designs is decided by Bjorn and Giuseppe of VYGER, not necessarily what audio forum members suggest on what information should be provided. VYGER will provide all necessary information that will allow interested VYGER potential customers to have a listen to one of VYGER's products.

Our primary mission at this time is to set up demonstration centers for interested parties to visit and listen to the VYGER turntables.

Edit: Of course if you are the owner of any of the VYGER TT's please feel free to pm Bjorn directly to find out specific details that you might be interested in.

 

[BjörnÖsten]

The idea that the details of how the new VYGER control system works can and will be explained in private conversations to interested potential VYGER customers is rather "curious".
From what BjörnÖsten hinted this Titan is supposed to be an advanced compressor control algorithm that learns how to deliver the precise amount of air for the system based on multiple factors.
I hope we can clearly understand in the future what the factors are and how they affect the operation of the machine.

From his words we can understand the effort put into making the purpose of this implementation be reliable, coherent and able to guarantee the functioning of the turntable over time.

However, it is important that when everything is ready, the operation can be explained clearly and exhaustively to the audiophile user. Now if it is true that not all users have to be physicists or engineers, it is equally true that even very complex topics can be explained. There are many examples in this sense and I mention one that is in history or the famous publication "Relativity: Divulgative Exposure" by Einstein. With it, despite the topics covered, he addressed a wider audience, and not his fellow scientists, and surprisingly managed to make everyone understand the meaning of his studies.

Now, given the due differences, I believe that in this context the same can and must be done not only to understand the reasons and effects of these implementations but also to avoid increasing doubts about the ease of use that has always accompanied the fame of this turntable.

I think the undoubted qualities of this product deserve this attention. I wish everyone involved a good job.

Hej,

I think it is very easy to conflate the technical workings with the user experience.

The user interface is based on the KISS model, with only 5 buttons that can be pressed to affect the set point of the air and vacuum and in combination to switch arms.

The user journey is quite simple and designed to be that way, but this is how most complex control systems work.

As far as that is concerned, it is as I stated in my analogy.

I am happy to discuss this with you directly of course as I understand you are an owner of a VYGER product to discuss the potential benefits of the system and how it could assist you.

Please feel free to PM me.

Björn

 

[PeterA]

Bjorn, thank you for your willingness to engage and answer questions. It is not clear to me if the air pressure in the system affects the speed of the turntable. Is the speed not controlled conventionally by the motor and its interface with the belt to the high mass platter?

 

[BjörnÖsten]

Bjorn, thank you for your willingness to engage and answer questions. It is not clear to me if the air pressure in the system affects the speed of the turntable. Is the speed not controlled conventionally by the motor and its interface with the belt to the high mass platter?

Hi Peter,

I think I may have taken a few things as granted, and of course as you develop conversation it demonstrates the weakness is such thinking.

So the TITAN is purely for the vacuum and pneumatic system, to say it has no control over the speed of the turntable albeit a slight non-sequitur it does not have a direct relation insofar as the ability for the controller to control speed, but obviously this is a frictionless system and relies on this as a dependent variable.

If there is not enough air at the bearing then the platter will not function correctly which will have a direct affect on the system to regulate the speed.

The actual speed control is currently within the motor pod, however we are now looking at new systems to take over this role, as you can imagine since the inception of the device technology has moved on and we are now looking at ways to lever the latest technology to improve the user experience.

The TITAN will have an optional remote that will allow the user to affect the air and vacuum from their favoured listening position so that any changes can have the control of being able to make these changes whilst being sat in the optimal position for staging etc, once set it will save to the system and no further configuration is required by the user as it is saved to the system and will be set even if the system loses power.

So.. the technology does have some overlap, but the TITAN itself does not control any aspect of the speed.

With respect to the TITAN, there are 5 key vectors it uses to manage the pneumatic control.

AIR/VACUUM FLOW
AIR/VACUUM PRESSURE
SYSTEM TEMP
COMPRESSOR TEMP
BEMF OF THE MOTORS (COMPRESSOR)

I hope that this is clear, if not again happy to elaborate.

B

 

[tima]

Hi Tima,
...

The machine learning aspect is for the system to understand based on a certain condition what is occurring and the best method to apply.

There is constant monitoring via the air pressure sensor, however this has a dual purpose, it not only provides input to the PID controller and machine learning model but it also displays to the user what the current pressure is. Once the system has stabilised it will only change if there are any movements to the stability, which will be infrequent as the system is robust, this negates any form of oscillation in the air supply.

The entire system is Microcontroller controlled, via a dual core module.

Please let me know if this has answered you question, if not I am happy to elaborate further.

Björn

Thanks for your helpful explanation and analogies. My sense is a similar approach can be applied to motor control in direct drive turntables.

 

[BjörnÖsten]

Thanks for your helpful explanation and analogies. My sense is a similar approach can be applied to motor control in direct drive turntables.

Hej Tima,

For sure there are many applications for this type of technology within HiFi in general.

I am sure that in the coming years we will see a larger uptake in adopting it, which will benefit the end user.

 

[BjörnÖsten]

Just an aside,

We are also looking for distributors in the following areas:

Europe
Asia
Africa
Australasia
South Americas
Canada

And we are taking pre-orders for the TITAN system.

For further details please PM me.

Many thanks

 

[bonzo75]

For a long time I tried to figure out if the ME in the subject was an abbreviation for some new motor or compressor. Duh

 

[BjörnÖsten]

For a long time I tried to figure out if the ME in the subject was an abbreviation for some new motor or compressor. Duh

Don't worry that is almost a Björnism!

I am terrible with vernacular, and will always try to ascribe a technical meaning to it!

Have a good day

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thanks to great patience by Björn, I now understand this conceptually.

The key to understanding this is that while the TITAN system is a closed loop (like a servo-feedback system) this system is not monitoring, and hunting and pecking, with constant correction (as would be the case with a servo-feedback system).

The TITAN system is an anticipated closed loop (not a feedback closed loop). TITAN is not monitoring and looking for something to go wrong and then correcting it (as is the case with servo-feedback control). TITAN is using a predictive model which may make an adjustment while playing, but is not constantly adjusting while playing.

Björn, please correct anything I have wrong here.

 

[tima]

The key to understanding this is that while the TITAN system is a closed loop (like a servo-feedback system) this system is not monitoring, and hunting and pecking, with constant correction (as would be the case with a servo-feedback system). The TITAN system is an anticipated closed loop (not a feedback closed loop). TITAN is not monitoring and looking for something to go wrong and then correcting it (as is the case with servo-feedback control). TITAN is using a predictive model which may make an adjustment while playing, but is not constantly adjusting while playing.

Monitoring, okay, but for today the hunting and pecking language is not helpful. Modern computer based systems are tightly integrated and incredibly fast compared to mechanical operations. The time gap between monitoring and adjustment can be so very small, near simultaneity. The ability to predict is in machine language algorithms using data already acquired. But it is not straightforward to predict the results of a prediction that is not yet fulfilled.

 

[bonzo75]

I think what Ron is saying, and as per Bjorn’s earlier analogy, it does not overshoot one way and correct back to the other way.

also, this is for air pressure, not speed control

 

[tima]

I think what Ron is saying, and as per Bjorn’s earlier analogy, it does not overshoot one way and correct back to the other way.

also, this is for air pressure, not speed control

My comment was on what Ron used in contrast as a means of explanation. That was not speaking to what it does not do -- saying what it does not do has limited explanatory power. In terms of what it does, , the notion of a purely predictive approach -- without some check or test of the prediction and appropriate reaction -- is insufficient to the job. Bottom line, I believe, is that even though you may not want to call it a servo it behaves like one. I understand this implementation is for air pressure however the broader model can also apply to speed control.

 

[BjörnÖsten]

My comment was on what Ron used in contrast as a means of explanation. That was not speaking to what it does not do -- saying what it does not do has limited explanatory power. In terms of what it does, , the notion of a purely predictive approach -- without some check or test of the prediction and appropriate reaction -- is insufficient to the job. Bottom line, I believe, is that even though you may not want to call it a servo it behaves like one. I understand this implementation is for air pressure however the broader model can also apply to speed control.

Hi Tima,

If you could expand a bit more on what your belief is as I am struggling with the language a little.

when using the word servo is this in respect to servo motor, if so.. it is not that, pure and simple.

If not can you please explain how you conceive the system working.

this is not a digitally proportional system whereby a set point is defined by the position of an actuator, it is an algorithm that is calculating parameters.

I appreciate this may seem novel in some ways, this is because it is, I do not believe there are any other systems of this kind in the world controlling turn tables.

Equally the VYGER system in comparison to other brands has a much higher pressure, this is to ensure the transient attack and bass response is optimal and like no other, this is why so much time and effort has been invested in this aspect.

The system you may describe as a linear regressive model.

Björn

 

[Lagonda]

Hi Tima,

If you could expand a bit more on what your belief is as I am struggling with the language a little.

when using the word servo is this in respect to servo motor, if so.. it is not that, pure and simple.

If not can you please explain how you conceive the system working.

this is not a digitally proportional system whereby a set point is defined by the position of an actuator, it is an algorithm that is calculating parameters.

I appreciate this may seem novel in some ways, this is because it is, I do not believe there are any other systems of this kind in the world controlling turn tables.

Equally the VYGER system in comparison to other brands has a much higher pressure, this is to ensure the transient attack and bass response is optimal and like no other, this is why so much time and effort has been invested in this aspect.

The system you may describe as a linear regressive model.

Björn

Are there air temperature sensors involved ? I have my compressor in the attic, depending on ambient air temperatures i change pressures to air bearing and and LT arm. I run about 45 psi pressure.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Does my £40 aquarium air pump belong in this company?

 

[BjörnÖsten]

Are there air temperature sensors involved ? I have my compressor in the attic, depending on ambient air temperatures i change pressures to air bearing and and LT arm. I run about 45 psi pressure.

Hi,

No, as we are controlling the entire environment and controlling the holistic temperature.

Condensate density at these pressures are not great and easily managed within the system.

@Lagonda can you PM me about your setting please.

Björn

 

[Lagonda]

Hi,

No, as we are controlling the entire environment and controlling the holistic temperature.

Condensate density at these pressures are not great and easily managed within the system.

@Lagonda can you PM me about your setting please.

Björn

Hello Björn ! I am using a modified Maplenoll, not a VYGER

 

[BjörnÖsten]

Hello Björn ! I am using a modified Maplenoll, not a VYGER

Ah ok.. I shall slowly back away from the Valium!

My mind was blown, 45 psi is 3 atmospheres there about, our system would not like that, and speaking of condensate density at 3.1B/310 kPA is quite a load.

If you do not mind me asking, are you using driers to manage this?

Kiitos

B

 

[Lagonda]

Ah ok.. I shall slowly back away from the Valium!

My mind was blown, 45 psi is 3 atmospheres there about, our system would not like that, and speaking of condensate density at 3.1B/310 kPA is quite a load.

If you do not mind me asking, are you using driers to manage this?

Kiitos

B

No , just a shop compressor with filters, no condensation at the arm and center bearing, i empty the little condensation there is from the expansion tank once a day. The compressor starts about once every 40 minutes and brings the pressure up to 100 psi in about a minute run time. No pulsations for the next 40 minutes, i use a oil free compressor, they are noisy about 100 db, but i have it in a isolated room in the attic, and can not hear it at all in the listening room.