Wadax Reference Dac and Server arrive

[Steve Vu]

Thanks Mike. That’s understandable and I apologize if I missed your prior attempts to explain the cost differential. With all due respect to everyone’s opinions on this thread, it feels like we’re comparing apples to oranges here with the Wadax stack + a preamp + additional cables and isolation likely costing 3x that of the MSB Select. For goodness sake, the Wadax should sound better. If it didn’t, Wadax would have squandered significant development cost. Certainly, I’m sure MSB could improve upon the Select if they had an additional $100K+\- of margin per unit to enhance design, hardware, etc. Saying that, I sure hope MSB’s answer to this is not a $250K Select III stack!

MSB fans always try to find the reason to debase Wadax but they forget Wadax Ref Dac is only higher than MSB Select II about $15k. MSB is about $130k for full options and Wadax is about $145k. The rate difference is maximum 10-15%.

Please don't talk about the preamp, cables or racks. If you use MSB, you still should use the preamp to make full use of the potentials of your system.

Don't concern yourself with the level of MSB and Wadax currently; accept it and move on to more productive pursuits.

 

[Audiocrack]

no need to apologize. prices can be the unsaid 800 pound gorilla in the room.

over dozens of threads here and on other forums over decades when we get to rationalizing performance and ROI at the bleeding edge of hifi performance the law of diminishing returns reigns. and even we mostly can't agree about what better performance actually means. so no, no way can i explain any cost differential in the written word. we let the manufacturers have a go at it. it's not our problem.

i fully agree with your apples and oranges analogy. i wish that MSB or Extreme owners would just observe the price difference and relax, the world is still on it's axis, but i know that will never happen. especially in the digital realm (with analog it's the opposite, the benefit of the doubt is more likely with new products....a greater expectation of the possibility of something better), there is a strong degree of skepticism with something new. and it's just how it is. so calmly expecting that some new 40-50% more expensive digital product is better is not how it's ever going to go. i've chased the ultimate digital playback for two decades. i can only say that i am satisfied with the answer to the question personally.

is the Wadax combo worth $100k more than the MSB/Extreme? is it even actually better? do you prefer red or blue? it is unanswerable factually.

we will find a degree of truth over time. will the Wadax have the staying power of the MSB Select? i know that is not 100% a performance question, but it's a big part of it. we will see how the marketplace reacts to the Wadax. that's where the truth will be with the product investment it will take.

I really do not understand this reaction, Mike (apart from the fact that you do not want to offend any MSB select ii owner). The price difference between the Wadax reference dac and MSB select ii dac is - relatively speaking - small. No comparison between apples and oranges. See my previous post and the latest reaction of Steve Vu.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I really do not understand this reaction, Mike (apart from the fact that you do not want to offend any MSB select ii owners). The price difference between the Wadax reference dac and MSB select ii dac is - relatively speaking - small. No comparison between apples and oranges. See my previous post and the latest reaction of Steve Vu.

Rudolf,

it's just how i see things. a $40k USD difference is not small. and with Wadax there are no used alternatives. but i respect that you might view it differently. i just want to move on but be respectful of how people feel.

my focus here is the experience of the Wadax Ref dac and server. i did my compares, said my piece, and that part is over.

my next thing is messing with the server adjustments. and i have a set of interconnects i'm trying out. so i want to move on from all the noise, as understandable as it is....and that some don't agree. more music, less posting.

 

[Audiocrack]

Rudolf,

it's just how i see things. a $40k USD difference is not small. and with Wadax there are no used alternatives. but i respect that you might view it differently. i just want to move on but be respectful of how people feel.

my focus here is the experience of the Wadax Ref dac and server. i did my compares, said my piece, and that part is over.

my next thing is messing with the server adjustments. and i have a set of interconnects i'm trying out. so i want to move on from all the noise, as understandable as it is....and that some don't agree. more music, less posting.

Sure you should enjoy your Wadax combo and I fully appreciate your wish to be respectful of how other audiophiles feel. Let’s agree to disagree on this point and move on.

 

[battles]

May I ask why we should not compare the retailprices of the Wadax reference dac and MSB select ii dac in your view? I am asking because most audiophiles - when they are spending money at this audio level - are going to use a preamp of their (own) choice / liking anyway. I do not know the exact price of the MSB select ii dac but if I am not mistaken it is around 110-120k usd (if you go all the way) while the Wadax reference dac costs 145k usd. I do not believe we are comparing apples to oranges if we take the prices of both dacs into account. And only looking at these prices the Wadax reference dac is indeed more expensive but is it really a night and day difference in your view?

It’s certainly a fair question. The point I was endeavoring to make was that many MSB Select owners are using the preamp module provided with the MSB Select in lieu of a separate reference preamplifier. Many will say that to best the stock preamp module, one needs to spend upwards of $50-$60K on a discrete preamp to achieve this, but even then the improvement can be more a matter of taste, than objectively being better. So assuming this is true, one can argue that the Wadax requires a separate preamp, cables, isolation platform, etc to integrate into a system which could amount to an additional $40-50K if we’re talking about reference level “stuff”. So besides the $30-40K differential in the cost of the DACs, you could argue another $80-$100K in said hardware is required to light up the Wadax. Obviously for many, $130-140K is a significant sum, and given the choice of having second best, and forgoing this added investment, would be more appealing.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It’s certainly a fair question. The point I was endeavoring to make was that many MSB Select owners are using the preamp module provided with the MSB Select in lieu of a separate reference preamplifier. Many will say that to best the stock preamp module, one needs to spend upwards of $50-$60K on a discrete preamp to achieve this, but even then the improvement can be more a matter of taste, than objectively being better. So assuming this is true, one can argue that the Wadax requires a separate preamp, cables, isolation platform, etc to integrate into a system which could amount to an additional $40-50K if we’re talking about reference level “stuff”. So besides the $30-40K differential in the cost of the DACs, you could argue another $80-$100K in said hardware is required to light up the Wadax. Obviously for many, $130-140K is a significant sum, and given the choice of having second best, and forgoing this added investment, would be more appealing.

specifically regarding the MSB passive preamp, no doubt it is very good relative to any other dac on board passive preamp. and includes the analog input. so a great system center piece. but it's not perfect and has it's limitations. one very experienced visitor to my system encouraged me to acquire the Totaldac d1 analog driver to get the level of musical energy that the dac and my system was capable of. obviously the MSB has no analog output stage....it's famously driven directly from the dac chips. and i think that as far as ultimate performance, the adjustable output voltage and adjustable impedance of the Wadax has some pure system performance advantages, although not as efficient or convenient as the MSB.

so yes, the case can be made for the value proposition of the MSB, but also a possible compromise too. just another viewpoint. and i personally never heard any lack of drive from the MSB, but i never heard the Totaldac d1 used with it either.

you are paying for the passive preamp and switching in the MSB, it's part of the package. does that take away anywhere? who can say? it's not in the Wadax. does that add anything of value for the active preamp user? who can say? fundamentally the two products are aimed differently. and one company sells amplifiers intended to be used with their dac.

 

[Audiocrack]

I never owned any MSB device and I am therefore not familiar with their precise pricing. I thought an all out MSB select ii dac (with Femto clock) costs around usd 120k. According to Steve Vu it is actually priced around usd 130k. The price difference between the two dacs is than ‘only’ usd 15k. In absolute terms a serious amount of money but relatively speaking not that significant.

And of course, a separate preamp of high quality costs a serious amount as well. But as mentioned earlier, I presume that most MSB select dac ii owners do insert a separate preamp or linestage of high quality anyway. But maybe I am wrong in this assumption?

It’s certainly a fair question. The point I was endeavoring to make was that many MSB Select owners are using the preamp module provided with the MSB Select in lieu of a separate reference preamplifier. Many will say that to best the stock preamp module, one needs to spend upwards of $50-$60K on a discrete preamp to achieve this, but even then the improvement can be more a matter of taste, than objectively being better. So assuming this is true, one can argue that the Wadax requires a separate preamp, cables, isolation platform, etc to integrate into a system which could amount to an additional $40-50K if we’re talking about reference level “stuff”. So besides the $30-40K differential in the cost of the DACs, you could argue another $80-$100K in said hardware is required to light up the Wadax. Obviously for many, $130-140K is a significant sum, and given the choice of having second best, and forgoing this added investment, would be more appealing.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I never owned any MSB device and I am therefore not familiar with their precise pricing. I thought an all out MSB select ii dac (with Femto clock) costs around usd 120k. According to Steve Vu it is actually priced around usd 130k. The price difference between the two dacs is than ‘only’ usd 15k. In absolute terms a serious amount of money but relatively speaking not that significant.

And of course, a separate preamp of high quality costs a serious amount as well. But as mentioned earlier, I presume that most MSB select dac ii owners do insert a separate preamp or linestage of high quality anyway. But maybe I am wrong in this assumption?

the MSB Select 2 with the 33 Femto clock and twin mono power supplies is $105k retail right now (it's how i figured a $40k diff to the Wadax). the ProUSB module or Renderer v2 i think are each under $2k each.....typically you choose one of them. so $107k retail. when i bought my Select 2 now 5 years ago it was about $120k retail ($89k for the dac with a single power supply, $20k for the second power supply, and $10k for the clock upgrade to the 33 Femto) for that package.

 

[Kawero]

Hi all,

I am a bit surprised regarding the discussion whether I am a Wadax dealer or not.

For sure my Wadax DAC doesn´t know whether I am distributing it or not. I felt there was no change in performance of the DAC when I got Wadax dealership.

And by the way: My main job is in the automotive industry as an executive in a big tier 1 supplier (Principal Expert Noise Vibration and Harshness for Vitesco Technologies - former Continental Powertrain Division)

Br

Rainer

 

[StreamFidelity]

Hi Rainer,

I am a bit surprised regarding the discussion whether I am a Wadax dealer or not.

it is about the disclosure of financial interests. A financial interest can always be present when you write something about a product that you sell. This does not mean that you still report independently and uninfluenced. But I think it's fair for readers to know your background.

I'm a retailer, too, and I think it's good if readers can better relate to my posts against that background.

Do you have a website? We Germans generally have a problem with luxury. High-quality HiFi is luxury for me, because it is not essential for life (which I'm sure some see differently ). That's why I think it's good when devices in the upper price segment are also offered in Germany. It is so rare.

I wish you much success.

Gabriel

 

[Kawero]

Hi Rainer,


it is about the disclosure of financial interests. A financial interest can always be present when you write something about a product that you sell. This does not mean that you still report independently and uninfluenced. But I think it's fair for readers to know your background.

I'm a retailer, too, and I think it's good if readers can better relate to my posts against that background.

Do you have a website? We Germans generally have a problem with luxury. High-quality HiFi is luxury for me, because it is not essential for life (which I'm sure some see differently ). That's why I think it's good when devices in the upper price segment are also offered in Germany. It is so rare.

I wish you much success.

Gabriel

Hi Gabriel,

currently I have not an own webpage regarding my importing business. But feel free to visit our speaker webpage here:
www.kaiser-acoustics.com

Br

Rainer

 

[Alpinist]

So, you are bringing to light an MSB issue that a lot of MSB costumers doesn’t know… This doesn’t help MSB too much…

Are you aware you are suggesting a lot of MSB Dac’s aren’t sounding at its best performance and MSB is hiding this?
I never have listened a Dac has to to be inspected and tuned up. At leats, Wadax one doesn’t need this kind of inspections…
If you are trying to find any way to believe MSB is still better, this way to do it doesn’t help. You are putting MSB transparency in doubt by hiding information and MSB users in a no needed position of concern about their MSB Dacs….

These statements are all slanderous lies and I agree with others that you are nothing but a troll with zero credibility. How is it MSB’s fault if the DAC used in the shootout was a used European one that eventually made its way back to the USA and may have potentially developed an issue during its travels or if MSB potentially made some updates from this early Select DAC to the current ones. Companies make small product updates all the time. MSB is an established high-end audio manufacturing company with a terrific track record, impeccable reputation and tremendous customer service, not a small assembly shop trying to make a name for itself.

 

[Audiocrack]

These statements are all slanderous lies and I agree with others that you are nothing but a troll with zero credibility. How is it MSB’s fault if the DAC used in the shootout was a used European one that eventually made its way back to the USA and may have potentially developed an issue during its travels or if MSB potentially made some updates from this early Select DAC to the current ones. Companies make small product updates all the time. MSB is an established high-end audio manufacturing company with a terrific track record, impeccable reputation and tremendous customer service, not a small assembly shop trying to make a name for itself.

Dear Alpinist, to me it seems unlikely that an experienced audiophile like Mike as well his many visitors have overlooked (or is it maybe: overheard?) a possible issue with his MSB dac. Much more likely is that (as happens to all audio components sooner or later) on a certain day a product - in this case the Wadax reference dac - comes along that to his as well as his visitors ears sounds (clearly) better than the MSB select ii. Feedback I received from various audiophiles all over the world with top notch digital set ups (including MSB select ii dacs) confirms that the Wadax reference dac is something very special indeed. Of course this does not imply that the select ii dac all of sudden has become a ‘bad’ product or something, far from it! I really hope for you that you will keep enjoying it as you used to do: the fact that according to various listeners - taking into account their (musical) preferences - the Wadax reference dac is in league of its own imho should not bother you at all.

 

[Audiocrack]

And maybe to illustrate my point further: there are (quite?) some WBF members who think I am totally crazy spending so much money on my (i)Tidal LA’s - just ordinary cone loudspeakers and no horns, right? - (ii) my Kondo Kagura’s and G-1000 (pre)amps - overpriced and sugar coated shit amps - as well as (iii) my Tripoint components - taking grounding so far is all bullshit - ; Ked, where are you??? Although I am of the opinion that they have preconceived ideas about sound and about mentioned audio products, mostly based on hifi show experiences, it is totally fine with me. I am enjoying my audio set up even without their ‘blessing’ (sorry Ked).

 

[bonzo75]

And maybe to illustrate my point further: there are (quite?) some WBF members who think I am totally crazy spending so much money on my (i)Tidal LA’s - just ordinary cone loudspeakers and no horns, right? - (ii) my Kondo Kagura’s and G-1000 (pre)amps - overpriced and sugar coated shit amps - as well as (iii) my Tripoint components - taking grounding so far is all bullshit - ; Ked, where are you??? Although I am of the opinion that they have preconceived ideas about sound and about mentioned audio products, mostly based on hifi show experiences, it is totally fine with me. I am enjoying my audio set up even without their ‘blessing’ (sorry Ked).

I don't remember ever having said anything against Tidal or grounding, since I never explored those - not sure why your strawman fight is against me

 

[Audiocrack]

I don't remember ever having said anything against Tidal or grounding, since I never explored those - not sure why your strawman fight is against me

Ah, there you are. But my LA’s are no horns and I believe you experienced Tripoint at Tang’s place. Anyway, this is a thread about Wadax. I just wanted to illustrate my point in a not all too serious way. And by mentioning your name I did not mean to offend you of course.

 

[bonzo75]

Ah, there you are. But my LA’s are no horns and I believe you experienced Tripoint at Tang’s place. Anyway, this is a thread about Wadax. I just wanted to illustrate my point in a not all too serious way. And by mentioning your name I did not mean to offend you of course.

No, Tang had the Tripoint out when I visited. I have never said a word about it.

I have written favorably about many cone systems, inlcuding the Zellaton at Audio Arts, and on a smaller scale, Avalon compass Diamonds.

You went OT, quite unnecessarily and more importantly, misrepresenting my stance

 

[Audiocrack]

No, Tang had the Tripoint out when I visited. I have never said a word about it.

I have written favorably about many cone systems, inlcuding the Zellaton at Audio Arts, and on a smaller scale, Avalon compass Diamonds.

You went OT, quite unnecessarily and more importantly, misrepresenting my stance

You take it all too seriously.

 

[Tango]

is the Wadax combo worth $100k more than the MSB/Extreme? is it even actually better? do you prefer red or blue? it is unanswerable factually.

Better is only for Mike to tell. The answer will be specific to his system too. But if ask general public, I think it is all depend on the sound of 'the whole' system. Say we have Mike's system with Wadax, Howie's Goble system with Lampi. And another system YG with MSB. Play the same song same track. A good number of people may pick one of these three in possibly equal distribution because we prefer things differently. So the big price differential justified? For Mike it is justified because he hear the Wadax sound better than his previous Lampi and MSB in his system. But people who pick Howie's sound will be puzzling why spend so much more when they think Howie's sound is better than Mike's. And some may like the sound of MSB in that YG more than Howie's. Personally I do not think that at the very top level there is a source component that is super great to the level determining the sound of the whole system. So when people go listen toWadax at Mike's, they actually appreciate how great the sound from his system rather than from a piece of gear in the chain.

Mike you must not feel so at ease they way people participate this thread as if they were Liverpool fans vs Man United fans.

 

[bryans]

Wow are we all teenagers here? I have never understood how if one person doesn't like something people act like they lost a kidney. This notion of MSB vs. Wadax or Extreme vs. anything else is way overdone. Buy the product you like and be happy.