Wadia Series 9 anyone??
- Thread starter egidius
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Agree with Lloyd, albeit with one remark. The Zanden cd-combo (which I own) has what I call a very humane character of itself, that is it lets the music flow in a natural, I would even say non digital way, provided you use the Zanden i2s cable. You can listen to it for hours without fatigue. Using a Halcyonics device under the Zanden transport lowered the noise floor significantly, making the combo much more transparent and revealing. Still my DCS Scarlatti four box player remains king at extracting details from cd's and sacd's. Although I have heard the scarlatti sounding pretty bad several times at various shows and show rooms, it can be a fantastic 'musical' player when you set it up rightly. Using Halcyonic vario devices under my wooden racks, Shun Mook feet under the scarlatti transport and scarlatti dac, good clock cables and digital cables, I believe the Scarlatti is a wonderful cd-player that also let's you enjoy the music without taking the technical details into account. But maybe Lloyd can comment on how he experienced the Scarlatti in my Genesis 1.1 set up.
Agree with Lloyd, albeit with one remark. The Zanden cd-combo (which I own) has what I call a very humane character of itself, that is it lets the music flow in a natural, I would even say non digital way, provided you use the Zanden i2s cable. You can listen to it for hours without fatigue. Using a Halcyonics device under the Zanden transport lowered the noise floor significantly, making the combo much more transparent and revealing. Still my DCS Scarlatti four box player remains king at extracting details from cd's and sacd's. Although I have heard the scarlatti sounding pretty bad several times at various shows and show rooms, it can be a fantastic 'musical' player when you set it up rightly. Using Halcyonic vario devices under my wooden racks, Shun Mook feet under the scarlatti transport and scarlatti dac, good clock cables and digital cables, I believe the Scarlatti is a wonderful cd-player that also let's you enjoy the music without taking the technical details into account. But maybe Lloyd can comment on how he experienced the Scarlatti in my Genesis 1.1 set up.
I agree with your comments about the DCS sounding bad at demos, so bad at times I couldn't get out of the room fast enough. Why do you think it has such as Dr. Jeckyl/Mr. Hyde like character?
I am not sure, Miles, but first of all show conditions are most of the time far from ideal (to put it mildly). But that applies to all hifi components of course. However, the scarlatti is an extremely revealing cd-combo; when something is wrong or far from ideal in the set up or acoustics it will let you know immediately and without mercy I would say. In the end it all depends on how you use the scarlatti and also (because it is so revealing) in which set up. In my Genesis system I am very happy with the scarlatti. In my Marten coltrane supremes set up I prefer the Zanden combo or the Metronome Kalista/Kondo dac combination because in my (non treated) listening room the scarlatti in combination with the accuton/diamond drivers of the coltrane supremes sound too harsh/'white' for me.
thank you for this thread, I have been looking for new digital sources and thinking to upgrade my s7i cdp, and s9 series are one of those, but above all I have to say I dont like the look of the s9, I see them quite ugly to be honest.
I have listened to the Kalista integrated cdp and was very impressed by the overall performance of the system being played (not my system and room), so not sure how does it sound compared to my s7i. On the other hand, I also listened to the top MSB Diamond dac IV + diamond base + transport before, but not very very impressed. I am not sure that was because of the huge ATC 300 speakers locating in a relatively medium size room compared to the speakers'size or for whatever reason.
I contacted the uk wadia distributor and been told that my s7i has no need to upgrade with its transport, and some audiophile friends said the s7i is very hardly to beat in term of redbook cd playback.
I have not listened to the burmester 069, dcs scarlatti or some others mentioned in this thread, but it seems there is a big difference between the s7i and the s9, also huge in the price. Has anyone listened to the current latest version of MSB combo and compared to latest S9? I have to say I am not a fan of multiboxes, so a compact one like 069 or Kalista integrated would be better for me... Above all, the performance is the most important factor we are talking about. I might have a good deal for the s9 or all the rest mentioned. Still wondering...
I have listened to the Kalista integrated cdp and was very impressed by the overall performance of the system being played (not my system and room), so not sure how does it sound compared to my s7i. On the other hand, I also listened to the top MSB Diamond dac IV + diamond base + transport before, but not very very impressed. I am not sure that was because of the huge ATC 300 speakers locating in a relatively medium size room compared to the speakers'size or for whatever reason.
I contacted the uk wadia distributor and been told that my s7i has no need to upgrade with its transport, and some audiophile friends said the s7i is very hardly to beat in term of redbook cd playback.
I have not listened to the burmester 069, dcs scarlatti or some others mentioned in this thread, but it seems there is a big difference between the s7i and the s9, also huge in the price. Has anyone listened to the current latest version of MSB combo and compared to latest S9? I have to say I am not a fan of multiboxes, so a compact one like 069 or Kalista integrated would be better for me... Above all, the performance is the most important factor we are talking about. I might have a good deal for the s9 or all the rest mentioned. Still wondering...
I forgot to mention that I have also heard the top MSB combination, the GTE Audio Trinity DAC in combination Metronome Kalista Ultimate, the Emm Labs top combination, Meridian top player, Playback Designs top player and Meitner Audio top player. I have also auditioned some of the older top players like Forsell Air Reference Transport/Air Reference DAC, Burmester 969/970, Krell KPSSC, Linn Sondek CD12, Mark Levinson 31.5/30.6, Oracle CD-2500 and Sonic Frontiers Transport 3/DAC (which I think sounds a bit like what an early version Zanden might have sounded like). I have yet to hear the Spectral SDR-4000, the Light Harmonic DAC, top CH Precision combination, Neodine Origine. both the Orpheus Labs Heritage and Privilege combinations, Weiss and Nagras latest top components mand of course the unreleased Constellation Audio Sirius. The MSB combination is more resolved than the S9. More like the dCS Scarlatti. The Wadia is more fullbodied, powerful and dynamic. I think it the differance is like comparing darTZeel amps (Wadia) and and Spectral amps (MSB).
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thank you for your inputs Sir, your comments regarding wadia is very true about their fullbodied, powerful and dynamic, even straight from the box without a pre in between - but much more enhanced if you include a great pre.
I've just finished reading the long thread about best one box player and see the s7i is truly fantastic, an audiophile friend told me not upgrading as he doesnt know which is better than the s7i for redbook playback
. this chap is also an insane audiophile who keep swapping boxes 5-6 times even more every year and keeps trying so many speakers/equipment.
the only digital playback system he mentioned to me is dcs scalarti - in his opinion is the closest one to "analog" - and much more expensive than my s7i where it is hardly to find an exdemo stack. On the other hand, my dealer friend keeps telling me how superior Msb is compared to others, and as previously mentioned, I was not really impressed by the system played with older msb diamond combo. It is interesting to hear that you see the msb combo is similar to the dcs scarlatti.
I am using the q5 and my dream is the q7 (never thought I could get there, especially when priced in the uk), and the owner of the kalista integrated is also using the q5 - this set up is from absolute sound uk show room. So...
I've just finished reading the long thread about best one box player and see the s7i is truly fantastic, an audiophile friend told me not upgrading as he doesnt know which is better than the s7i for redbook playback
. this chap is also an insane audiophile who keep swapping boxes 5-6 times even more every year and keeps trying so many speakers/equipment. the only digital playback system he mentioned to me is dcs scalarti - in his opinion is the closest one to "analog" - and much more expensive than my s7i where it is hardly to find an exdemo stack. On the other hand, my dealer friend keeps telling me how superior Msb is compared to others, and as previously mentioned, I was not really impressed by the system played with older msb diamond combo. It is interesting to hear that you see the msb combo is similar to the dcs scarlatti
.I am using the q5 and my dream is the q7 (never thought I could get there, especially when priced in the uk), and the owner of the kalista integrated is also using the q5 - this set up is from absolute sound uk show room. So...
Hi Audiocrack, Your words ring true. I think most of us would agree system setup is critical to getting the best out of any component or set of components (including the room). Despite my personal reservations about the DCS Scarlatti when I auditioned it (at the store well before I visited your place)...I remember that audition vividly because it was one of only 2 times when a piece of digital started me thinking...I 'sensed' that in the right system DCS Scarlatti could be magic. That audition had real potential...it just was not optimally setup, nor did I expect it to be. The level of 'OTT' that we audiophiles engage in at home is sometimes well beyond what even manufacturers do in their own workshops.
And that is exactly what I appreciated about your setup with the Kondo/Genesis (modified) 1.1s. If I may be so bold, an 'insanely' careful attention to detail and setup the likes of which I admit I have not seen. But it made magic out of the Scarlatti...where the level of detail that was 'impressive but ultimately a bit typewriter-like' in the store...was impressively detailed in an effortless and fluid way.
Truly impressive...
sonrock,
Please do give the MSB another go, with a different set up. I'm not familiar with the top Wadia gear, so I can't tell how their fare against the MSB. IMHO the MSB Diamond is not similar to the dCS, it's considerably better. And it has none of those finicky issues, like "proper clock cables". It just works, and I hook my transport to the DAC with a regular CAT6 Ethernet cable.
alexandre
Please do give the MSB another go, with a different set up. I'm not familiar with the top Wadia gear, so I can't tell how their fare against the MSB. IMHO the MSB Diamond is not similar to the dCS, it's considerably better. And it has none of those finicky issues, like "proper clock cables". It just works, and I hook my transport to the DAC with a regular CAT6 Ethernet cable.
alexandre
Roy,
Let me say first, it is wonderful to see you contributing so strongly again. As the saying goes, Long may she reign. Stay well.
As for Zanden, I am probably the single most vocal Zanden-digital-phile on this entire forum, and admit it............
OK...enough about Zanden...this is a Wadia 9 thread...sorry!
No, not at all, I had mentioned Zanden exactly for that reason - having never heard one, but reading your testimony is earwatering (does that work?? weird one)
As to the 9. I simply don't know anybody in Switzerland who has one. I am sure there must be, but they might not know it, that kind of owners.
And the S7i GNSC is so far one of the best I have heard, even though i like the immediate, slightly coarse, boldness of my ZZ8. It is as if the pacing is in bigger steps, but steadier..
Well they would, since that was the aim with the stream unlimited, which has sometimes been described as a TEAC - I believe it to be a further version of the Philips transport, considered to be good.
I'll do Sir, now I have to wait for the demo stock coming to my dealer friend, then he'll be able to loan them to me. An audiophile friend told me yesterday, the best he's ever heard is The Ultimate Reference Kalista transport and Opheus dac, but the price is insane I believe. Its interesting with MSB gear when they use kind of "ethernet cable" to connect between the transport and dac, no need very expensive digital cable though.
Coming back to the thread: There are loads of SOTA assaults nowadays, but I believe the early dCS and the Wadia series 9 started it - they were ridiculously expensive then, and could be affordable now, but is it worth it?
Your answers have been very clear, thanks! So there remain two questions:
Are those products costing now maybe 20-30 second hand as good as nowadays SOTA projects costing multiple that amount?
AND
Are those products costing now maybe 20-30 second hand superior to products that cost the same new, for example an Accuphase DP700 or similar.
I can hardly trust that new sounds are better than old ones.
Egidius
Your answers have been very clear, thanks! So there remain two questions:
Are those products costing now maybe 20-30 second hand as good as nowadays SOTA projects costing multiple that amount?
AND
Are those products costing now maybe 20-30 second hand superior to products that cost the same new, for example an Accuphase DP700 or similar.
I can hardly trust that new sounds are better than old ones.
Egidius
we all know there are "differences" and just few very lucky ones who own both the old and new can give out correct impressions based on their experience and ears. The most important is price keeps going up for the "new flagship" that annoys everyone.
on the psychological point of view, not so many of us want to buy the "old flagship" while keep thinking about the "new flagship" and unsure how it is better - in many cases we dont have a chance to compare them, or even listen to them somewhere - so buying blind is the probability here (it applies in my cases many times).
but I believe the money you spend on the new flagship products is not correctly reflecting on what you receive back compared to the old flagship that you owned. in many cases you are wasting money, in some cases you see its ok and worth, and in rare cases you see that's a bargain.
thats my opinion!
on the psychological point of view, not so many of us want to buy the "old flagship" while keep thinking about the "new flagship" and unsure how it is better - in many cases we dont have a chance to compare them, or even listen to them somewhere - so buying blind is the probability here (it applies in my cases many times).
but I believe the money you spend on the new flagship products is not correctly reflecting on what you receive back compared to the old flagship that you owned. in many cases you are wasting money, in some cases you see its ok and worth, and in rare cases you see that's a bargain
. thats my opinion!
This is an interesting question. If you look at the trend in the current digital designs there are a number of new technologies being exploited which simply weren't cost-effective 5 or 10 years ago. Today it's common to see a DAC priced under 10K that plays well above its price point when compared to SOTA components which were designed in the middle of the last decade. Whether or not one is better than the other is usually a matter of personal taste, but one can't ignore the value presented by some of the newer designs from firms like Bricasti, Weiss, Playback, and even Esoteric. In comparing retail prices between one of these newer designs and an older all-out-assault the newer designs look quite appealing.
In the case of something like the S9 at its retail price (approx $35K sans transport) there are a host of less expensive options which may get you 99% of the way there for far less. Even the S7 fell into this category. Now if you compare the average used price of the S9 (say sub $20K) then the extra benefit of the S9 may be worth the much smaller price increase.
Honestly, I think that whether or not a used S9 is comparable or bettered by a current product at a similar price point is going to be up to personal taste and nothing more. I'm playing with an Esoteric K-03 now and am quite impressed by it. Would a K-01 be better than a used S9??? I honestly don't know, but it's a scenario worth evaluating. The one thing that I did learn in my evaluation of the S9 was that the difference between the S7 and S9 seemed greater as the resolving power of the downstream components went up. With the VTL MB-450s the differences were minor, but with the ML 53s the S9 made all the difference.
The one thing about Wadia that always struck me was that there was little else out there that sounded like a Wadia. As a fan of their house sound I always looked at the S9 as the best possible iteration of it. Unfortunately, based on other upgrades I've decided to do to my system I'm simply out of rack space and can't accommodate the S9
If you're seriously considering an S9 I know that my dealer friend is getting ready to sell his demo. This is the same unit that I evaluated and almost purchased.
we all know there are "differences" and just few very lucky ones who own both the old and new can give out correct impressions based on their experience and ears. The most important is price keeps going up for the "new flagship" that annoys everyone.
on the psychological point of view, not so many of us want to buy the "old flagship" while keep thinking about the "new flagship" and unsure how it is better - in many cases we dont have a chance to compare them, or even listen to them somewhere - so buying blind is the probability here (it applies in my cases many times).
but I believe the money you spend on the new flagship products is not correctly reflecting on what you receive back compared to the old flagship that you owned. in many cases you are wasting money, in some cases you see its ok and worth, and in rare cases you see that's a bargain
thats my opinion!
Agree...particularly on a few points you make:
1. It is very interesting to read from those who do own several SOTA digital systems. Audiocrack and Roysen come to mind, among others.
2. I am a big believer that the rate of progress in audio is often outpaced by the rate of depreciation! A 2 year old flagship model trading at 35%-40% off...or a 3-yr old model at nearly 50% off...is oftentimes still SOTA.
It is tough to make a definitive statement particularly in digital. For me, I think at 5-10K, what you get today is stunningly better than what 5-10K bought 3-4 years ago. The trickle down theory really applies.
On the other hand, a sota 3-4 yr old digital, dcs Scarlatti, is still an amazingly competitive digital setup with today's latest sota. So is stahltek vekian original, or even Zanden in many respects which is possibly 5-6 years since latest spec, Wadia's 9, Mbl 1621, etc.
It begs the question; Have the designers reached the limit of digital data extraction and conversion to analogue yet? Or are close??
In my recent experience, and forgive me if this seems blatant, but the recent implementation of the NIMH power supply to the D-A circuit in Masa Tsuda's already world class DAC040 is a very clear signal that with the correct thinking ideology, refinements can be made that do so significantly improve the sonic attributes of digital. The new DAC is very highly placed in the 'master tape experience' class, and as someone else pointed out, you do need very clean amplification to take maximum advantage of these improvements.
So, ultimately it comes down to which design philosophy we feel most comfortable buying into, all relevant connection options, and have the rack space to accommodate? The Wadia nine will always be regarded as their masterpiece digital front end, and I'm certain will always have a presence that others will aim for in the market.
Using a battery driven Audio Consulting MIPA I can vouch for this feeling of absolute peace of a well implemented power amp, incomparable - sometimes I would like to drive the Berning with a battery, have not tried this yet..
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