Wave Kinetics NVS Reference Turntable Review on Positive Feedback

[KeithR]

What a wonderful piece of writing (and machinery!). I've always enjoyed listening to the NVS/Durand combo. Congrats, Jonathan.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Keith, can you sum up what you like about the NVS/Durand, and how it might be different from the competition?

 

[jtinn]

Hi Jonathan,

I wonder whether you could expand on this point to explain the situations where you see active isolation useful or not.

Obviously I am no turntable designer so very curious as I would have expected an active platform of this quality to benefit all turntables regardless of design especially when they are active down to 1hz or so, which is far beyond any integrated turntable suspension that I was aware of?

Cheers

Hi Bill, It is not a matter of whether or not active vibration is useful or not, it is more about whether it is being used in the right situation or not. There are some turntables, due to their design that active vibration just won't work with. Depending on the suspension or method of vibration control, active isolation could possibly create a constant seek loop and be totally ineffective.

Also, due to the designed application of most active isolation devices, they have certain requirements. They need to sit on top of something with mass and rigidity to be effective.
The Wave Kinetics NVS has a platform that handles vibrations down to 2 - 3Hz. It is possible that active isolation could better that, I just have not done the comparisons. I know that Mike Lavigne seems to be very happy with the results he achieves utilizing the Herzan.

 

[jtinn]

I presume one of the variables that needs to be correct for active isolation to be effective is a very sturdy and solid support rack. I think Mike L discussed that in the tread about the Herzan. I'm curious to know what the other variables are.

Yes Peter, please refer to my response to Bill.

I also wonder if the isolation shelf that Wave Kinetics sells for under the NVS is available for purchase as a stand alone product for use under other turntables.

No Peter, it is designed and tuned specifically for the NVS turntable.

 

[jtinn]

What a wonderful piece of writing (and machinery!). I've always enjoyed listening to the NVS/Durand combo. Congrats, Jonathan.

Thanks so much Keith!

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi Bill, It is not a matter of whether or not active vibration is useful or not, it is more about whether it is being used in the right situation or not. There are some turntables, due to their design that active vibration just won't work with. Depending on the suspension or method of vibration control, active isolation could possibly create a constant seek loop and be totally ineffective.

Also, due to the designed application of most active isolation devices, they have certain requirements. They need to sit on top of something with mass and rigidity to be effective.
The Wave Kinetics NVS has a platform that handles vibrations down to 2 - 3Hz. It is possible that active isolation could better that, I just have not done the comparisons. I know that Mike Lavigne seems to be very happy with the results he achieves utilizing the Herzan.

Thanks, Jonathan.

So what specific turntable designs would run into this constant seek loop? I ask as I think many of us see the active platform as the panacea for all turntables regardless of design so some pointers to types of suspensions and / or makes would be incredibly helpful to wbf members.

Cheers,

Bill

 

[PeterA]

Thanks, Jonathan.

So what specific turntable designs would run into this constant seek loop? I ask as I think many of us see the active platform as the panacea for all turntables regardless of design so some pointers to types of suspensions and / or makes would be incredibly helpful to wbf members.

Cheers,

Bill

I've never done a direct comparison between an active platform like the Herzan and a passive one like my Vibraplane. It has been suggested to me that the rapid adjustments, starts and stops, settling times of an active may cause an effect like jitter for a suspended table like my SME which may go into isolation and then react back and forth with the platform, but I really don't know or have any experience with the combination.

I've always thought that active platforms were designed to isolate things that don't move. Perhaps the effect would be more dramatic with a table that uses metal springs for suspension. My SME is very well damped and it takes quite a bit of force to move the platforms either up and down or laterally.

Perhaps Jonathan can elaborate.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I've never done a direct comparison between an active platform like the Herzan and a passive one like my Vibraplane. It has been suggested to me that the rapid adjustments, starts and stops, settling times of an active may cause an effect like jitter for a suspended table like my SME which may go into isolation and then react back and forth with the platform, but I really don't know or have any experience with the combination.

I've always thought that active platforms were designed to isolate things that don't move. Perhaps the effect would be more dramatic with a table that uses metal springs for suspension. My SME is very well damped and it takes quite a bit of force to move the platforms either up and down or laterally.

Perhaps Jonathan can elaborate.

what an active isolation platform does is to sense resonance and compensate. the trick is the speed and precision of compensation. it's essentially in real time due to the piezoelectric sensors and actuators. so the target gear is isolated from the resonance to the resonance spec of the shelf.....in the case of the Herzan .5hz.

I've used passive on top of the Herzan with no ill effect. the passive above does not accentuate any vibration. a tt with passive isolation designed in could be improved. or it could sound too soft. you would need to hear it.....I don't like to generalize. I know Christian uses the Herzan underneath his TECHdas, which has it's own passive suspension.

OTOH passive below the Herzan can result in potentially continual correction and harm to the active device....it will burn out. you need something massive and stiff below for optimal performance.

as far as isolating things that move; that is only an issue as far as balance....as it is isolating the top shelf of the active shelf. if the moving object changes the balance of the target item, that would cause the active device to re-level; which would then be audible and compromise performance. rotating turntables and tone-arms do not cause re-leveling. I would expect that a tape deck would not cause re-leveling. clearly using a electron microscope does not cause re-leveling. so movement is fine, but there are limits. from a physics perspective it likely has to do with the amount of motion and the mass of the moving parts relative to the whole mass of the gear. an arm wand relative to most turntables is a ratio where the movement would not effect level....and in theory the platter is sufficiently finely balanced that it should not be an issue.

just like your Vibraplane needs leveling to be effective so does the Herzan.

 

[audioblazer]

I've never done a direct comparison between an active platform like the Herzan and a passive one like my Vibraplane. It has been suggested to me that the rapid adjustments, starts and stops, settling times of an active may cause an effect like jitter for a suspended table like my SME which may go into isolation and then react back and forth with the platform, but I really don't know or have any experience with the combination.

I've always thought that active platforms were designed to isolate things that don't move. Perhaps the effect would be more dramatic with a table that uses metal springs for suspension. My SME is very well damped and it takes quite a bit of force to move the platforms either up and down or laterally.

Perhaps Jonathan can elaborate.

Active platforms were designed to isolate things that doesnt move . 1 of the current hottest TT designer posed that question to me when I asked him abt active platform for TT. Lab equipment doesnt move . TT set up do

 

[thekong]

Active platforms were designed to isolate things that doesnt move . 1 of the current hottest TT designer posed that question to me when I asked him abt active platform for TT. Lab equipment doesnt move . TT set up do

I remember seeing a video (by Mike Lavigne ?) showing that even if he lightly clapped his hands next to Herzan, the line in the indicator screens warbled very slightly and briefly, indicated the unit was indeed reacting to the vibration.

Mike can correct me if I am wrong, but I think the indicator line doesn't move when his NVS is turning. That seems to indicate the turntable’s vibration, at least in the case of the NVS, is even less than the air turbulence caused by lightly clapping hands!

 

[Loheswaran]

Good thread. I would absolutely love to hear one of these NVS decks - sadly I don't thin kthere's one in the UK.
I love the discussion as to 'whats best?' in audio in relation to wines, cigars etc. At that level it's about taste.
Out of interest what does this all mean about neutrality? Is it a case of not being neutral, or, alternatively, is it case of each deck being able to get you closer to one aspect of the truth ie - tone, bass, image etc.

 

[JackD201]

I think neutrality means different things to different people but generally, at least for a lot of the guys here, it is the degree with which our music libraries are least homogenized. This particular table has been described by many of their owners to allow such differences in recordings to be more noticeable or apparent. As a fan of virtuosity in both the performing and the recording arts, I find this to be a great thing. It might not be for someone who craves for a familiar or rather a distinct tonal palette. Nothing wrong with that in my book either.

 

[jtinn]

Bill & Peter: Peter is on the right track. As one example, if you have ever seen an Avid table in person, it is a perfect example. Check out toward the end of this video and watch the continuous movement from the suspension:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJqwgG5ttVM

 

[jtinn]

Good thread. I would absolutely love to hear one of these NVS decks.

I would love for you to as well. Please let me know your thoughts if you ever do.

 

[jtinn]

I think neutrality means different things to different people but generally, at least for a lot of the guys here, it is the degree with which our music libraries are least homogenized. This particular table has been described by many of their owners to allow such differences in recordings to be more noticeable or apparent. As a fan of virtuosity in both the performing and the recording arts, I find this to be a great thing. It might not be for someone who craves for a familiar or rather a distinct tonal palette. Nothing wrong with that in my book either.

I agree, words mean different things to different people. The word neutral by definition means lacking color or positive characteristics. I do not think that the NVS can be properly described as neutral, I personally prefer the word natural as the descriptor.

Hearing deeper into the grooves due to an almost completely absent noise floor and at a pace where sustained notes are consistent and accurate is part of what we strive for and I believe achieve with the NVS.

Jack I would love for you to experience it at some point.

 

[JackD201]

I agree, words mean different things to different people. The word neutral by definition means lacking color or positive characteristics. I do not think that the NVS can be properly described as neutral, I personally prefer the word natural as the descriptor.

Hearing deeper into the grooves due to an almost completely absent noise floor and at a pace where sustained notes are consistent and accurate is part of what we strive for and I believe achieve with the NVS.

Jack I would love for you to experience it at some point.

So would I Jonathan. I've always had a thing for DDs and I always liked the NVS' looks.

 

[Steve williams]

So would I Jonathan. I've always had a thing for DDs and I always liked the NVS' looks.

It's a fabulous TT. Every time I hear it, I find things that I like more and more. Jonathan's rooms at shows have always been in my top 3

 

[JackD201]

Jaime and I have yet to meet up again despite his wife's brother being one of my closest friends from childhood. I hope to hear his MM7s and Darts soon. Life just keeps on getting in the way.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It's a fabulous TT. Every time I hear it, I find things that I like more and more. Jonathan's rooms at shows have always been in my top 3

+1

Jonathan's room was, I think, the best I heard at T.H.E. Show Newport this year.

 

[XV-1]

So would I Jonathan. I've always had a thing for DDs and I always liked the NVS' looks.

Jack

Just become the local distributor and you can.