yes but why are you using 85 as an example? Why not, for example, 100 + 5 db = 105?
What’s the world’s best 2 watt amplifier?
- Thread starter godofwealth
- Start date
yes but why are you using 85 as an example? Why not, for example, 100 + 5 db = 105?
A great result and thanks for reporting.
Addressing some previous comments regarding tubes versus solid state, I always felt that the J2 delivered nicely in the tone/timbre/harmonic overtones/tactile presence departments. Dynamics - even at low listening levels - are also a J2 strong point.
Obviously, a lot swings on the particular amp/loudspeaker partnership, and it sounds like yours is a harmonious match.
Congratulations!
It’s generally accepted that this is the target to reach to reproduce live music, or film, in the home.
If you google what actual peaks are, in a symphony for example, 105 is on the low end.
I will sign on to the 2W or less crowd! Yes, more power can work magnificently, but flea amps can also sound magnificent with efficient speakers. Most times, it's not how efficient the speakers are rated it's their impedance curve that determines their performance. Not all 95 dB/W/m speakers are equal.I don’t see how a 2W amp can power any speaker adequately.
“Adequate” defined as able to recreate live music. This requires the ability to play 105dB peaks without distortion (ie, 85dB avg plus 20dB headroom). Before you say ‘that’s way too loud, I would never listen at 105dB’, you’re not actually listening at that level and actual live music often exceeds these peaks.
I think it was Art Dudley from Stereophile who measured >105dB from row J in a symphony.
An online calc will give you an idea of how much power you need. Even with 105dB speakers, and that’s about the max you can get, realistically, you need at least 9W, even sitting 3m away.
Link to o
As such, the Kondo Japan Souga (dual 2A3) is the best you can get. Even it is pushing it at only 8W.
(Don’t be too scared by the price. No one pays retail for theseHigh Fidelity
www.highfidelity.pl
Beau
I think it‘s dangerous and futile to recreate live levels in a typical indoor listening room for various reasons, not the least of which are the health of your ears. If you go deaf, there’s hardly any point to owning a Hi-Fi, is there?
Leaving aside my concern about auditory damage from long-term exposure to high decibel sounds, which sadly afflicts a growing percentage of the youth, there’s a physical impossibility to reproducing an orchestra in an indoor setting, even if you spent $10 million dollars on a Hi-Fi.
Let’s take bass as an example. My listening room is quite large, 6000 cubic feet give or take, but it pales in comparison to a concert hall like Carnegie Hall. Sound travels around 1130 feet per second. To get the wavelength of a low 20 Hz frequency sound, dividing 1130/20 gives us over 60 feet! Now in Carnegie Hall, that’s a piece of cake. The hall is many hundreds of feet long. In my house, the longest distance is less than 30 feet. There’s no way low bass can be reproduced in my house like it can in Carnegie Hall. At home, low bass is like being in a pressure zone. Bass sounds completely different in a concert hall. No amount of money will fix this problem. If you want to enjoy a pipe organ, best to head for the nearest church. Hear the organ the way Bach expected you to hear it!
Let’s take high frequency notes from, say, the brass section. You are generally hundreds of feet away from the trombone players. The sound that reaches your ears is a complex mixture of direct and reverberant sound. Most of the sound is reverberant sound. Great sounding concert halls have warm reverberation, which greatly helps diffuse bright percussive sounds. Strings sound meltingly pure and luxuriant in the concert hall for the same reason. Ambience is hugely important. At home, in a space many orders of magnitude smaller, you can’t recreate that.
All of this implies you should never aim to recreate live levels at home. Even if you did, it would never ever sound like a concert hall. In 35+ years of comparing live and recorded music, I’ve never once felt what I’m hearing at home is anything like what I hear at a concert. It’s mathematically impossible to recreate live sound, even if you’re Elon Musk or Bill Gates, short of building your own concert hall. But you’d still need the audience to absorb the sound. Listening alone in a large concert hall does not give the same effect!
@godofwar You are not considering room treatments, which are absolutely essential. The most important thing you can do.
In my small room (~13’x14’) I can get bass to 20Hz. Why? Because of room treatment - absorption and reflection - including an opening to the rest of the house.
You’re not going to go deaf listening to classical for example at live levels. The peaks are just momentary peaks. I have never heard of season ticket holders for the philarmonic going deaf. My dad is a professional Violinist. His hearing is great.
Sure, you’re never going to be 1:1 with a live event, but man you can get really really close. Your brain will always know that you’re not at a live event, but a great system will suspend your disbelief. Every night am I surprised by my system‘s, and brain‘s, ability to do just that!
Your goal may be different of course. In my office, I am not trying to recreate a live event. I actually have ~85db Wilson TuneTots paired with the 8W Kondo amp!
In my small room (~13’x14’) I can get bass to 20Hz. Why? Because of room treatment - absorption and reflection - including an opening to the rest of the house.
You’re not going to go deaf listening to classical for example at live levels. The peaks are just momentary peaks. I have never heard of season ticket holders for the philarmonic going deaf. My dad is a professional Violinist. His hearing is great.
Sure, you’re never going to be 1:1 with a live event, but man you can get really really close. Your brain will always know that you’re not at a live event, but a great system will suspend your disbelief. Every night am I surprised by my system‘s, and brain‘s, ability to do just that!
Your goal may be different of course. In my office, I am not trying to recreate a live event. I actually have ~85db Wilson TuneTots paired with the 8W Kondo amp!
@godofwealth
Nice comments and perspective. Some live venues are more difficult to recreate than others. My frequent venue hangouts are smaller/intimate jazz clubs snd classical music recitals.
Even these less daunting scenarios (Compared to concert hall symphonies) cannot be 100% replicated and that’s okay. I can get close enough in my home setting to where I am very happy and content to what I hear.
We all have different standards/targets/objectives and so on. For those who want to pursue live venue volume levels in their home, go for it if that’s what you want.
Audio and music appreciation is very individualistic and personal. So do what suits you.
Charles
Nice comments and perspective. Some live venues are more difficult to recreate than others. My frequent venue hangouts are smaller/intimate jazz clubs snd classical music recitals.
Even these less daunting scenarios (Compared to concert hall symphonies) cannot be 100% replicated and that’s okay. I can get close enough in my home setting to where I am very happy and content to what I hear.
We all have different standards/targets/objectives and so on. For those who want to pursue live venue volume levels in their home, go for it if that’s what you want.
Audio and music appreciation is very individualistic and personal. So do what suits you.
Charles
Exactly @charles1dad - as long as a system can reproduce frequencies at 20-25dB above normal listening levels, you are assured that peaks will play cleanly and without distortion. So if you listen at an average of 60dB (well below live music levels), you need to hit 80-85dB to ensure the peaks are undistorted.
The comment about speaker impedance is correct, but the online power calculators already assume the best case (flat impedance of 8ohm), so actual amp power will have to be greater (to account for speaker impedance going below the assumed level).
To be honest, 8W is not enough even for a desktop system where my ears are ~2 feet from the drivers and the online calculator says it 'should' be fine, and I am listening below live or reference levels.
The comment about speaker impedance is correct, but the online power calculators already assume the best case (flat impedance of 8ohm), so actual amp power will have to be greater (to account for speaker impedance going below the assumed level).
To be honest, 8W is not enough even for a desktop system where my ears are ~2 feet from the drivers and the online calculator says it 'should' be fine, and I am listening below live or reference levels.
It’s not a question of whether you can get 20 Hz reproduced in your room. You can get 15 Hz reproduced in a car stereo if you buy enough subs. I have a pair of gigantic REL G1 Mk2s that will comfortably produce bass down to 15 Hz in my large room. REL calls these sub bass systems for a reason. The point I was making is whether bass at 20 Hz or lower for a pipe organ will sound like it does in a concert hall or a church. The basic laws of physics suggest you cannot do it because at 20 Hz or 15 Hz, the wavelengths get so large that they are bigger than the length or width of even the largest listening rooms. So, while you easily reproduce 15 Hz or 20 Hz in even a small room, or a car, it’s not going to sound like a church or concert hall. Nothing wrong with that. Plenty of folks like to blast their car stereo so loud that I sometimes feel my house vibrating! But that’s not concert hall or church quality sound. It’s a manufactured sound. If you like it, there’s nothing wrong with that. Other than possible damage to your ears.
20Hz is the same wavelength whether it’s from a pipe organ or a sub. The laws of physics do not change.
A well designed high-end system and room will sound incredibly real. Yes, including a pipe organ. Try and listen to one someday!
A well designed high-end system and room will sound incredibly real. Yes, including a pipe organ. Try and listen to one someday!
Maybe the problem lies in the fact that in the listening room frequencies of 15-20 Hz are created by multiple reflections from the walls?
With multiple reflections of the wave, we get the right wavelength to experience such low frequencies. But it certainly won't be the same sound as from the cathedral.
Isn't that’s why 20Hz playback from the sub in relativity small room doesn't sound like in the cathedral or concert hall?
It might be worth thinking in that direction.
With multiple reflections of the wave, we get the right wavelength to experience such low frequencies. But it certainly won't be the same sound as from the cathedral.
Isn't that’s why 20Hz playback from the sub in relativity small room doesn't sound like in the cathedral or concert hall?
It might be worth thinking in that direction.
Indeed, but you can get extremely close with a well designed room and system.
If replicating live is your goal, it can be achieved. A big part of that is room treatment, and being able to reproduce dynamic peaks.
If replicating live is your goal, it can be achieved. A big part of that is room treatment, and being able to reproduce dynamic peaks.
Clearly, it’s time to revisit some basic high school physics here. Sound propagation occurs as a compression of air (see pic below). The laws of physics are of course the same in Carnegie Hall as they are in your living room. What changes dramatically, and my original point if you reread what I wrote, are the dimensions of your room vs. Carnegie Hall. Unless your living room is as large as Carnegie Hall, which I very much doubt, playing back a voice in your room will not sound the same as the same spoken voice in Carnegie Hall.
Low bass wavelengths of 20 Hz or less will be felt and heard very differently in Carnegie Hall vs. your room, even though the laws of physics are the same. Sound travels just as fast in your house as it does in Carnegie Hall. But you can never hear a 20 Hz bass wave in your house since your house living room is simply not big enough. What you hear is a compression, not the whole wave. Look at the picture below and truncate a small part of it, say the first peak or trough. That’s a compression zone. That’s what you hear. Not the whole wave or series of waves. The reason is exactly what you gave: the laws of physics don’t change. Now if by some miracle, you could change the laws of physics in your house, of course things would be different (e.g., you could listen to music underwater in your backyard or indoor swimming pool). If you listened underwater, sound travels four times as fast. Now that changes the wavelength calculation as a 20 Hz 60 foot wave is now only 15 feet long under water. But you need four times the energy. And a speaker that sounds good under water.
And yes, I’m confident my house listening room is just as well designed as yours with components as good or better than yours. I have about 200 pounds of REL subwoofers that can effortlessly reproduce 15 Hz. It can shake my house to its foundations. But I don’t kid myself that it will ever sound like Carnegie Hall. No matter how much money I spend.
“And yes, I’m confident my house listening room is just as well designed as yours with components as good or better than yours.”
LOL. I’m certainly not.
REL is decent but nowhere near the top. You’re not going to get close to thinking it’s live with any number of REL subs.
(I could go on but I don’t want to).
My dad is a professional violinist. When he cries at the sound of an orchestra playing in my media room, I consider disbelief suspended. I think you should go and hear well sorted, high-end systems. @Rhapsody has several showrooms across the US, as an example. I think you will be amazed at what you hear — assuming you are open to hearing what a true world-class system is capable of.
You have a tendency to get into threads with a naysayer approach that doesn’t really make sense. I read your posts in the Taiko thread as well which really don’t add up. (Where you tried to argue that expensive DACs don’t make sense due to an (erroneous) link between distortion and SNR — I think these are best saved for the ridiculous ASR site.)
I still don’t know what point you’re trying to make above: that home media rooms will never sound like a concert hall so why bother? If that’s what you believe, buy a $99 Bluetooth speaker and be done with it (and no need to post on “What’s Best”).
Take care and enjoy the hobby.
LOL. I’m certainly not.
REL is decent but nowhere near the top. You’re not going to get close to thinking it’s live with any number of REL subs.
(I could go on but I don’t want to).
My dad is a professional violinist. When he cries at the sound of an orchestra playing in my media room, I consider disbelief suspended. I think you should go and hear well sorted, high-end systems. @Rhapsody has several showrooms across the US, as an example. I think you will be amazed at what you hear — assuming you are open to hearing what a true world-class system is capable of.
You have a tendency to get into threads with a naysayer approach that doesn’t really make sense. I read your posts in the Taiko thread as well which really don’t add up. (Where you tried to argue that expensive DACs don’t make sense due to an (erroneous) link between distortion and SNR — I think these are best saved for the ridiculous ASR site.)
I still don’t know what point you’re trying to make above: that home media rooms will never sound like a concert hall so why bother? If that’s what you believe, buy a $99 Bluetooth speaker and be done with it (and no need to post on “What’s Best”).
Take care and enjoy the hobby.
Last edited:
A good sound system will certainly enhance one’s listening pleasure, and I’ve certainly owned a lot of high end products for 35+ years. But it won’t sound like a real concert hall. A good OLED or front projector will certainly enhance viewing pleasure at home. But it’s not going be like watching a 70 mm film projector in a real theater, or even our experience of the real world in immersive 3D.
I didn’t raise this in my original post, but was responding to yours. There are inherent limitations to reproduced sound or video. That does not mean listening to a $99 Bluetooth radio (although when I was on the east coast, my neighbor used to play for the Boston Symphony and he was perfectly happy to listen to a Bluetooth radio — he never felt any reproduction was worth the investment and as a musician, he’d rather spend the money on musical instruments). A good sound system is of course worth it to me otherwise I wouldn’t be here. But I don’t confuse reproduction with the real thing.
I didn’t raise this in my original post, but was responding to yours. There are inherent limitations to reproduced sound or video. That does not mean listening to a $99 Bluetooth radio (although when I was on the east coast, my neighbor used to play for the Boston Symphony and he was perfectly happy to listen to a Bluetooth radio — he never felt any reproduction was worth the investment and as a musician, he’d rather spend the money on musical instruments). A good sound system is of course worth it to me otherwise I wouldn’t be here. But I don’t confuse reproduction with the real thing.
At the moment im driving my vintage la scalas with a ukranian made 3-4w SET based on 40-50s german valves and iron. Seems to be a very good fit. Lovely tone and plenty of power, though the bass is a tad more sloppy than with the also-nice leak stereo 20 that i used before.
I received them earlier this summer. Thomas warned me that they take time to break in (not something he normally concerns himself with) and he was right. For 6-8 weeks I worried that I had made a mistake. Heck, my wife who is not an audiophile, even commented out of the blue after a month or so, "why do you have to change what works? I like the old amps better".
Thankfully, Thomas was right. Now that they are broken in, a direct comparison with the 45 driving 45 amps confirms the upgrade was worth it to me...and my wife. The 45 drives 45 is a beautiful and realistic sounding amp, but the TM300B with silver transformers reveals more natural detail, similar, though more realistic tone colors, and most importantly, more communicative of the artists' emotional intent. At this level, these differences are subtle of course, but nevertheless, easily heard and highly rewarding.
Hi!
I was caught by surprise myself about the break in time these transformers need. I used different silver transformers before and switched to bees wax impregnated transformers. For some reason these need a long time to settle in.
You might consider to try the TM801A in the driver position as well. They are currently sold out but I will get more made in February.
Best regards
Thomas
Similar threads
