What’s with the ‘this amp, it’s really good for small scale music’ thing

[Hear Here]

If an amp can’t deliver on all types of music then it’s not doing its job properly. For too long many have accepted that some amps play ‘small music’ really well but can’t deliver on a grand scale. IMHO they are suffering with poor quality amps.

Cableman

I think you’ve initiated this thread following my mention of various amplifiers used with Avantgarde speakers in another thread. In that thread I included this observation:

Art Audio PX-25 SET - best sound for female vocal, small scale music

Is it this remark that prompted you to start this thread? If so, you are obviously not familiar with the Art Audio amp.

It is an SET powered by a PX-25 valve with a meagre 6 watts output. Do you really believe that this is “not doing its job properly” or a “poor quality amp”?

This amplifier reproduces the female voice supported by a small ensemble exquisitely, but it’s understandably a little out of its comfort zone with a Mahler symphony played at an appropriate volume. If I mainly listened to the former, I'd be still be happily using the Art Audio amp.

There’s no mileage in your argument that “Any decent amp … must be able to produce ALL MUSIC ... If it can’t do that toss it and move on” As with speakers, some amps are better reproducing certain types of music than others, otherwise we would all choose the same “perfect” amplifier.

What amplifier do you use and with which speakers? It would be interesting to know, so we could all “toss out” our “poor quality amps” and speakers and follow your example. It’s easy to add it to your Signature. Thanks.

 

[Cableman]

Cableman

I think you’ve initiated this thread following my mention of various amplifiers used with Avantgarde speakers in another thread. In that thread I included this observation:

Art Audio PX-25 SET - best sound for female vocal, small scale music

Is it this remark that prompted you to start this thread? If so, you are obviously not familiar with the Art Audio amp.

It is an SET powered by a PX-25 valve with a meagre 6 watts output. Do you really believe that this is “not doing its job properly” or a “poor quality amp”?

This amplifier reproduces the female voice supported by a small ensemble exquisitely, but it’s understandably a little out of its comfort zone with a Mahler symphony played at an appropriate volume.

There’s no mileage in your argument that “Any decent amp … must be able to produce ALL MUSIC ... If it can’t do that toss it and move on” As with speakers, some amps are better reproducing certain types of music than others, otherwise we would all choose the same “perfect” amplifier.

What amplifier do you use and with which speakers? It would be interesting to know, so we could all “toss out” our “poor quality amps” and speakers and follow your example. It’s easy to add it to your Signature. Thanks.

I am indeed familiar with the Art Audio amp and I 100% stand by my criticism of amps that only seem to perform well with ‘small music’. My amps are 30W a side and they have no problem hitting crescendos when required with pretty much full range speakers 35hz -90 KHz as I recall

So you don’t think my argument about ‘tossing it’ has merit. That’s fine. I ‘tossed’ an expensive Ypsilon phonostage that couldn’t cut the mustard and also a d’Agustino phonostage too, and I would the Art Audio as they ain’t playing in the same league as my amps.

I will not engage with you again if you don’t temper your tone

 

[jeff1225]

I am indeed familiar with the Art Audio amp and I 100% stand by my criticism of amps that only seem to perform well with ‘small music’. My amps are 30W a side and they have no problem hitting crescendos when required with pretty much full range speakers 35hz -90 KHz as I recall

So you don’t think my argument about ‘tossing it’ has merit. That’s fine. I ‘tossed’ an expensive Ypsilon phonostage that couldn’t cut the mustard and also a d’Agustino phonostage too, and I would the Art Audio as they ain’t playing in the same league as my amps.

I will not engage with you again if you don’t temper your tone

What amps are you using Cableman?

 

[jeff1225]

Any decent amp irrespective of price must be able to produce ALL MUSIC from the sweetest whimsical female vocal to in your face head banging rock to full scale classical drama. If it can’t do that toss it and move on

No amp is worth it’s salt if it’s only really good for the proverbial ‘small scale stuff’.

I really think you’re talking about a mismatch of amp and speakers. When the power vs efficiency mismatch, the amps will only power the speakers enough for the small stuff.

 

[Cableman]

I really think you’re talking about a mismatch of amp and speakers. When the power vs efficiency mismatch, the amps will only power the speakers enough for the small stuff.

Hi. If the amp speaker interface isn’t cutting it then yes there’s something wrong. A decent amp should be able to play all genres all styles all levels. It really isn’t doing it’s job if it can’t.

Someone told me I’m talking nonsense. Yet I’ve worked on many sides of both the music and hifi industries. Record label owner. Artist Management Record Producer and Mixer and occasional Concert Promoter. Now Hifi Dealer Distributor and Manufacturer. I call it like I sees it. Sorry if that offends some.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . I ‘tossed’ an expensive Ypsilon phonostage that couldn’t cut the mustard . . .

This is misleading, according even to your own prior posts.

In prior posts you wrote that the Ypsilon phono stage was "Lovely at low levels but no dynamics," and then you concede that "the Ypsilon just did not have the gain my system required."

This seems to me to be the fault of improper component-to-component gain matching on your part. How is this a fault of the Ypsilon phono stage?

 

[Cableman]

This is misleading, according even to your own prior posts.

In prior posts you wrote that the Ypsilon phono stage was "Lovely at low levels but no dynamics," and then you concede that "the Ypsilon just did not have the gain my system required."

This seems to me to be the fault of improper component-to-component gain matching on your part. How is this a fault of the Ypsilon phono stage?

Sorry you felt it was misleading. The point I believe I was making is that a decent amp should perform equally well whatever you throw at it. Being consistent, the same applies to a phonostage (The manufacturer was equally confounded and helped all they could). I never had the same issue with ANY other phonostage The Ypsilon didn’t so it had to go.

 

[Cableman]

Ron. You ever heard the Evans MasterGroove SR or the Manley Steelhead or the Vitus SP102 or d’Agostinos ‘dog’. I auditioned them all back to back. Only the Ypsilon failed to produce large scale. Only the d’Agostino failed to produce decent sound.

 

[jeff1225]

Sorry you felt it was misleading. The point I believe I was making is that a decent amp should perform equally well whatever you throw at it. Being consistent, the same applies to a phonostage (The manufacturer was equally confounded and helped all they could). I never had the same issue with ANY other phonostage The Ypsilon didn’t so it had to go.

Sorry but your are completely wrong here. Preamps must be carefully matched with amps, specifically when it comes to the input impedance of the amps and output gain of the preamp. Also, any amp can’t drive any speaker. My lovely 18 watt First Watt SIT has no chance of driving any YG or Magico made ever.

 

[Cableman]

Sorry but your are completely wrong here. Preamps must be carefully matched with amps, specifically when it comes to the input impedance of the amps and output gain of the preamp. Also, any amp can’t drive any speaker. My lovely 18 watt First Watt SIT has no chance of driving any YG or Magico made ever.

Lol. Not my experience. I’ve had many preamps that work absolutely fine in my set up, from diverse manufacturer all over the planet. The only issue I EVER encountered was with the Ypsilon which didn’t have the gain. My 30W /ch amps have also driven EVERY speaker thrown at them both in my home set up and at hifi shows all over the world where someone else was supplying loudspeakers. Thanks though for your input.

 

[jeff1225]

Lol. Not my experience. I’ve had many preamps that work absolutely fine in my set up, from diverse manufacturer all over the planet. The only issue I EVER encountered was with the Ypsilon which didn’t have the gain. My 30W /ch amps have also driven EVERY speaker thrown at them both in my home set up and at hifi shows all over the world where someone else was supplying loudspeakers. Thanks though for your input.

"Didn't have gain" = preamp miss match. You have failed to name the maker of your magic 30W amps that can drive EVERY speaker. You're obviously postering here or your just confused.

What a joke.

 

[Hear Here]

Yet I’ve worked on many sides of both the music and hifi industries. Record label owner. Artist Management Record Producer and Mixer and occasional Concert Promoter. Now Hifi Dealer Distributor and Manufacturer.

Shouldn't that be made clear in your Profile? Normally forum users should declare any vested interest in the subject the forum discusses.

 

[Cableman]

Shouldn't that be made clear in your Profile? Normally forum users should declare any vested interest in the subject the forum discusses.

What vested interest. I was asked to reveal my experiences.

 

[Cableman]

"Didn't have gain" = preamp miss match. You have failed to name the maker of your magic 30W amps that can drive EVERY speaker. You're obviously postering here or your just confused.

What a joke.

Lol. I’ve stated it many times.
Question. When Abbey Road ( a studio I’ve had the pleasure of working in) changes the types of music they’re recording do they change the equipment to suit?

Sadly this is degenerating into Hoffman Forum- like cancel culture. Tsk tsk.

 

[Cableman]

"Didn't have gain" = preamp miss match. You have failed to name the maker of your magic 30W amps that can drive EVERY speaker. You're obviously postering here or your just confused.

What a joke.

Im sure Audiopax would be intrigued to hear their amps and pres are … checks notes… mismatched

 

[cjfrbw]

The 120db dynamic range standard doesn't take into account the the near universal use of compression in recorded music. For real world listening purposes, even in edifice systems, 110 db peaks with the vast majority of recordings is sufficient. If you are routinely listening to 120db peaks with most routine recordings, the midrange elements are going to be excessively loud and out of proportion, likely even painful.

A nice side benefit of 110db peak goal is that the nominal amp only needs 10 percent of the peak power of a 120db peak goal amp. I doubt you would miss anything from the rare, true dynamic range 120db entirely uncompressed recordings. In fact, on most stereo systems, even the Godzilla setups, uncompressed music is such a paradigm shift, it sounds somewhat alien to even jaded audiophile ears. If you are listening to small ensemble non-compressed music, it is unlikely that those have meaningfully recorded 120db peaks, either.

Audible 'ease' deriving from amplifiers with large abundance of excess watts. HMMM?? Dunno about that one, and I have heard stuff for many decades now, really find the concept of 'ease' merely deriving from high power elusive everywhere except perhaps sales promotions Maybe that's just inefficient, wonky impedance or current hungry speakers needing excess power just to sound 'normal'?

Nelson Pass said in some of his demo setups for First Watt that he attaches a 'true' power meters, covers them up, and asks listeners how much power they think they are hearing. He does operate efficient speakers, but he says they always believe they are hearing much higher power than the meters indicate, which are usually demonstrating peaks around a watt. Large amps with multiple output devices have 'current sharing' problems which can degrade sound quality.

Power meters showing peaks of hundreds or even thousands of watts on peaks? I'll give a guarded HMMM??? to that one as well. You don't even need ears to watch needles or led's bouncing around.

I have been listening on the efficient big midrange ribbons lately with a pair of hung cathode RCA 2A3 and a type 80 hung cathode rectifier, playing at about 2 watts per side, and for some strange reason I don't miss the extra hundreds of watts I am supposed to need for 'ease' at all. Sounds amazing, and it plays louder than I can comfortably listen without any audible break up I can determine. Admittedly, that is with about 30 or 40 percent of the total db power spectrum, but still not that much power.

 

[jeff1225]

Lol. I’ve stated it many times.
Question. When Abbey Road ( a studio I’ve had the pleasure of working in) changes the types of music they’re recording do they change the equipment to suit?

Sadly this is degenerating into Hoffman Forum- like cancel culture. Tsk tsk.

You're not being "canceled," you're being challenged. And obviously not up to it.

Abby Road built a system that can play all types of music because of proper system matching. To drive the somewhat inefficient B&W 800 speakers, they are using the proper amount of solid state amps.

This is all pretty straight forward stuff really.

 

[Cableman]

The 120db dynamic range standard doesn't take into account the the near universal use of compression in recorded music. For real world listening purposes, even in edifice systems, 110 db peaks with the vast majority of recordings is sufficient. If you are routinely listening to 120db peaks with most routine recordings, the midrange elements are going to be excessively loud and out of proportion, likely even painful.

A nice side benefit of 110db peak goal is that the nominal amp only needs 10 percent of the peak power of a 120db peak goal amp. I doubt you would miss anything from the rare, true dynamic range 120db entirely uncompressed recordings. In fact, on most stereo systems, even the Godzilla setups, uncompressed music is such a paradigm shift, it sounds somewhat alien to even jaded audiophile ears. If you are listening to small ensemble non-compressed music, it is unlikely that those have meaningfully recorded 120db peaks, either.

Audible 'ease' deriving from amplifiers with large abundance of excess watts. HMMM?? Dunno about that one, and I have heard stuff for many decades now, really find the concept of 'ease' merely deriving from high power elusive everywhere except perhaps sales promotions Maybe that's just inefficient, wonky impedance or current hungry speakers needing excess power just to sound 'normal'?

Nelson Pass said in some of his demo setups for First Watt that he attaches a 'true' power meters, covers them up, and asks listeners how much power they think they are hearing. He does operate efficient speakers, but he says they always believe they are hearing much higher power than the meters indicate, which are usually demonstrating peaks around a watt. Large amps with multiple output devices have 'current sharing' problems which can degrade sound quality.

Power meters showing peaks of hundreds or even thousands of watts on peaks? I'll give a guarded HMMM??? to that one as well. You don't even need ears to watch needles or led's bouncing around.

I have been listening on the efficient big midrange ribbons lately with a pair of hung cathode RCA 2A3 and a type 80 hung cathode rectifier, playing at about 2 watts per side, and for some strange reason I don't miss the extra hundreds of watts I am supposed to need for 'ease' at all. Sounds amazing, and it plays louder than I can comfortably listen without any audible break up I can determine. Admittedly, that is with about 30 percent of the total db power spectrum, but still not that much power.

Heresy. lol

 

[Cableman]

Abby Road built a system that can play all types of music because of proper system matching. To drive the somewhat inefficient B&W 800 speakers, they are using the proper amount of solid state amps.

This is all pretty straight forward stuff really.

Solid state is the future and I’m ‘ not up to it’. Tell me again where exactly you prove I’m not ‘up to it’. I’ll continue to be respectful. I hope you will be too.

oh and thanks for agreeing with me that decent amps should play all types of music and not favour ‘small stuff’ over others.

 

[jeff1225]

Im sure Audiopax would be intrigued to hear their amps and pres are … checks notes… mismatched

I was referring to the Ypsilon preamp being a mismatch with your Audiopax amps. The Ypsilon would clearly be a mismatch with just 16db of gain and an output impedance of 150 ohms. The Audiopax preamp on the other hand has 23 dB of gain and an output impedance of 45 ohms.

This is not evident of bad designs, just choices manufacturers make. Unfortunately with the demise of dealers, many people make similar mistakes of mismatching components.