What determines "believability of the reproduction illusion"

[Steve williams]

Frank

Is there an issue with the electrical grid in your area.Have you tried power conditioners out of curiosity or have you tried grounding outside

 

[fas42]

Steve, I don't believe so. The major problem is noise being generated on the internal wiring, by other devices that are operating in the home at the same time - not from external, neighbouring homes', etc, electrical noise. As regards power conditioners and filters, yes, I have tried quite a variety of devices over the years - though none of them commercially available units. These have been copies of other's DIY designs, and some which are totally of my own design - they have all been effective to some degree, but I have yet to be satisfied in having complete immunity to noise problems - close, but no cigar. I'm sure that enough effort here, and even some of the best purchasable units, and combinations thereof, will get one to a point where one doesn't have to worry any more - but that's something I might aim for further down the track - the headache is that old rule of projects in general: the closer one is to getting everything just right, the more effort and resources have to thrown at it to get the last piece fully in place ...

 

[morricab]

I agree wrt power supply and OPTs, one nice thing about SET power supplies is the filter after the rectifier uses lower value capacitors so you can ditch the electrolytics and use film caps. I use Clarity TC series caps in my own tube gear, the difference vs electrolytics is pretty big.

Another key many SET designers miss is the driver section, the typical single triode driver is the source of a lot of distortion and typical "tube sound". A better driver with less distortion is capable of making a SET amp sound very precise and accurate, my own SET amp has sounded a lot less "tubey" than many SS amps. Interestingly, many preamps use decent circuits that work well for SET drivers but it's so rarely applied to an actual SET amp because of the additional complexity. Also, it helps A LOT if the driver section has it's own power supply, there are issues associated with using the output tube's PS for the driver circuit too.

Overall, I think SET + an efficient speaker can make for a very believable system, moreso than most lower efficiency systems that measure far better. For simple music like female vocals with sparse acoustic accompaniment, SET + a good single driver is almost unbeatable.

The driver is very important and you can see that Allnic makes a big deal of this in their amp descriptions.

I have found that low sensitivity systems cannot overcome their limitations with power. Dynamic and thermal compression are ever present and limit dynamic experessivness of the system no matter how much power you pour into it.

 

[morricab]

For one, I just don't agree with the highlighted statement - there is no presence when sitting at Symphony Hall's rear-left and rear-right orchestra seats, for example; it's even worse at Tanglewood; but the experience is still believable; try it. I just do not buy that every seat in every hall offers presence, therefore, presence is not part of what makes things believable to me; it just adds Excitement, but on the other hand, there is nothing wrong in seeking Presence as well. In fact, I'd rather be on the conductor's podium! So nothing wrong with your definition of believability either, but I don't agree that a system w/o presence won't be believable. For example, I have heard highly believable systems (per my definition) - like the Magico M5s, driven by Nagra tubes - which render everything far into the stage, with no real presence [performers not in front of me], and they were spectacular in their own right; a lot of folks like that sound.

You also brought up an interesting counterpoint in your last sentence: what is "enough" for believability; and you mentioned perhaps timbre plus volume and dynamics. I just focused on what is the TOP attribute and what comes after, but not what's enough. I have not thought about what's "enough".

I would like to address a couple of ponts that yours and Peter's discussions have hit upon. The question of Presence. Now, I personally think that Presence is VITAL in a system to create believability...it is right up there with corret timbre/tone.

However there seems be a couple of points overlooked in the discussion and that is you can have good Presence in a system but that system doesn't get the tone/timbre of instruments completely correct and is therefore somewhat lacking in believability. Conversely, you can have a system with spot on timbre/tone and it doesn't have life-like dynamics and presence. The two do not have to go hand in hand. Horns often get the presence and dynamics correct but rarely have truly correct timbre. Electrostats and ribbons are usually the opposite, although really big ones can get the dynamics and presence quite good as well.

With regard to presence or lack thereof in live music, distance to the performers matters. I agree that sitting in the back of a hall may make the sound less present and involving. Sitting close to performers always enhances this effect. What does that matter with regards to recordings? Simple, most recordings are made "up close" so the presence should be stronger with most recordings than live, unless you are always in the first few rows at a concert. This is not so bad because we don't have the visual cues that one gets live and so it enhances the experience. But recorded music will almost always be more "present" than most seats in a big concerthall.

 

[morricab]

Has anyone heard a high-performing system that doesn't have "presence"? It seems like this just happens when other things come together...

Presence from outside the room when you can't see the speakers is also interesting, how live the music can sound... imo it is somewhat important and has to do with the speaker having an even power response since you're not hearing any direct sound, but also that it can play at realistic SPLs, have extended frequency extension on both ends and proper dynamics.

Sure, most of the rooms in Munich this year (and past years) lack it to a degree that realism is not to be found.

 

[Al M.]

With regard to presence or lack thereof in live music, distance to the performers matters. I agree that sitting in the back of a hall may make the sound less present and involving. Sitting close to performers always enhances this effect. What does that matter with regards to recordings? Simple, most recordings are made "up close" so the presence should be stronger with most recordings than live, unless you are always in the first few rows at a concert. This is not so bad because we don't have the visual cues that one gets live and so it enhances the experience. But recorded music will almost always be more "present" than most seats in a big concerthall.

Good point! -- Agreed.

 

[Rodney Gold]

At the end of it all , believabilty means the system/room has to do everything right PLUS... your mood has to be right too...
I think that using anywhere barring the sweet spot as a criteria for believability is wrong...

 

[bonzo75]

However there seems be a couple of points overlooked in the discussion and that is you can have good Presence in a system but that system doesn't get the tone/timbre of instruments completely correct and is therefore somewhat lacking in believability. Conversely, you can have a system with spot on timbre/tone and it doesn't have life-like dynamics and presence. The two do not have to go hand in hand. Horns often get the presence and dynamics correct but rarely have truly correct timbre. Electrostats and ribbons are usually the opposite, although really big ones can get the dynamics and presence quite good as well.

With regard to presence or lack thereof in live music, distance to the performers matters. I agree that sitting in the back of a hall may make the sound less present and involving. Sitting close to performers always enhances this effect. What does that matter with regards to recordings? Simple, most recordings are made "up close" so the presence should be stronger with most recordings than live, unless you are always in the first few rows at a concert. This is not so bad because we don't have the visual cues that one gets live and so it enhances the experience. But recorded music will almost always be more "present" than most seats in a big concerthall.

Agree that there is tone and timbre, and there is the dynamics and "distance from stage" effect. I can't get involved in a live concert at certain venues if I have the wrong seat. I normally don't. I always get around the centre at Barbican stalls, slighly back of center from stage, and similar in the front stalls at Royal Festival Hall (their acoustics in the rear stalls are poor and balcony are alright). In smaller venues for baroque like Wigmore Hall distance from stage matters less, but I still prefer center from the sides. At Barbican while I prefer to be back of center for Orchestra, I prefer more front for Vocals or solo violin/small ensembles. For smaller stuff, being in front allows me to enjoy better tone due to weight of lower octaves coming across clearly. When I have the right seat, which I get 90% of the times, live is more present than recorded.

Now, as far as hifi goes, different systems appeal to different aspects of my preference. Vinyl is strong on tone and timbre. As goes for ribbons and certain horns, like WE and Anima. Systems like Marty's and big Apogees and Trios with bass horns are awesome on scale and dynamics and the realism for large orchestra.. I can easily see where Trio lacks a bit in tone, and where I could possibly break any of the systems by introducing something that leads to bad timbre. Put a bad CD in DDK's system. But there is a rejection criteria, and then an acceptance criteria. Much like the satisfier/dissatisfier or hygiene factors. The Trios having a bit less tone are still high up on my list due to the scale, dynamics, and wall to wall imaging. The Animas I like because of certain timbres and immediacy, but would like trio like bass on them. Stats with valves, great for vocals and baroque. Yet put the wrong amp on a stat and it makes me want to run away due to bad tone. Henk's Apogee Grands, love love love on every aspect

The best for depth from the stage is a Datasat Auro 3d. I have heard a 13.4 system, and because they have the overhead voice of god channel, you can get a serious depth illusion, which no 2-ch can give you. Not even close. But their are few recordings in that format, though MCH for classical exists, and people like Kal Rubinson have long been advocates of MCH for classical. The downside being you will never get the tone of vinyl and nice valves, and getting the tone of ribbons or a good horn in MCH is too expensive.

 

[fas42]

At the end of it all , believabilty means the system/room has to do everything right PLUS... your mood has to be right too...

The mood is not a factor IME, if the sound is right then it is always believable - if someone is playing the drums, or guitar, or piano, for real in your home, you may be in a filthy mood and be offended by the music making, especially if the "mood" of the music is strong contrast to your own - but it's not a case that it doesn't then sound not like the real thing, or invalidate it; it's just that it's not agreeable, at that moment.

 

[BruceD]

I would like to address a couple of ponts that yours and Peter's discussions have hit upon. The question of Presence. Now, I personally think that Presence is VITAL in a system to create believability...it is right up there with corret timbre/tone.

However there seems be a couple of points overlooked in the discussion and that is you can have good Presence in a system but that system doesn't get the tone/timbre of instruments completely correct and is therefore somewhat lacking in believability. Conversely, you can have a system with spot on timbre/tone and it doesn't have life-like dynamics and presence. The two do not have to go hand in hand. Horns often get the presence and dynamics correct but rarely have truly correct timbre. Electrostats and ribbons are usually the opposite, although really big ones can get the dynamics and presence quite good as well.

With regard to presence or lack thereof in live music, distance to the performers matters. I agree that sitting in the back of a hall may make the sound less present and involving. Sitting close to performers always enhances this effect. What does that matter with regards to recordings? Simple, most recordings are made "up close" so the presence should be stronger with most recordings than live, unless you are always in the first few rows at a concert. This is not so bad because we don't have the visual cues that one gets live and so it enhances the experience. But recorded music will almost always be more "present" than most seats in a big concerthall.

Well Blow me down--I thought I had seen that somewhere recently--yeh- I have a "Presence" control on my Amp-ha!--I gather in this case relates to activate Global NFB in the circuit

I never knew Presence was enhanced by amounts of NFB

You're never to old to learn something in this game!

But at my age remembering it is the worry!

BruceD

 

[bonzo75]

Lol, what is that Presence knob?

 

[morricab]

Well Blow me down--I thought I had seen that somewhere recently--yeh- I have a "Presence" control on my Amp-ha!--I gather in this case relates to activate Global NFB in the circuit

I never knew Presence was enhanced by amounts of NFB

You're never to old to learn something in this game!

But at my age remembering it is the worry!

BruceD

Is that your guitar amp??

 

[ack]

I would like to address a couple of ponts that yours and Peter's discussions have hit upon. The question of Presence. Now, I personally think that Presence is VITAL in a system to create believability...it is right up there with corret timbre/tone.

However there seems be a couple of points overlooked in the discussion and that is you can have good Presence in a system but that system doesn't get the tone/timbre of instruments completely correct and is therefore somewhat lacking in believability. Conversely, you can have a system with spot on timbre/tone and it doesn't have life-like dynamics and presence. The two do not have to go hand in hand. Horns often get the presence and dynamics correct but rarely have truly correct timbre. Electrostats and ribbons are usually the opposite, although really big ones can get the dynamics and presence quite good as well.

With regard to presence or lack thereof in live music, distance to the performers matters. I agree that sitting in the back of a hall may make the sound less present and involving. Sitting close to performers always enhances this effect. What does that matter with regards to recordings? Simple, most recordings are made "up close" so the presence should be stronger with most recordings than live, unless you are always in the first few rows at a concert. This is not so bad because we don't have the visual cues that one gets live and so it enhances the experience. But recorded music will almost always be more "present" than most seats in a big concerthall.

I hear you, but I still consider Presence as adding to the excitement, not believability. It is also true that any recording or system that does not have presence to a large degree is quite boring to me, as are the rear side seats at Boston Symphony Hall, to the point that I walked out of a concert once during intermission. BTW, I also made the same point earlier about horns as you, and I agree, electrostatics and ribbons (which I both own and owned) do timbre extremely well, but don't do as well with the other aspects of sound.

 

[bonzo75]

I hear you, but I still consider Presence as adding to the excitement, not believability. It is also true that any recording or system that does not have presence to a large degree is quite boring to me, as are the rear side seats at Boston Symphony Hall, to the point that I walked out of a concert once during intermission. BTW, I also made the same point earlier about horns as you, and I agree, electrostatics and ribbons (which I both own and owned) do timbre extremely well, but don't do as well with the other aspects of sound.

You need to go really big on ribbons, with Apogee Full range or Apogee Grands

 

[Jim Smith]

For me, I have to have Dynamics, Presence & Tone for my own system, and for those that I voice.

 

[fas42]

I don't have the "Get Better Sound" book, but my goals and intent would be the same as Jim's - the difference is, I have the engineering background and approach to resolving matters which means that I get on the inside of components, and alter things at the individual electronic part and construction level which are weak or defective, so that that particular part of the system, and therefore the system overall, performs better. When this is done to a sufficient degree then it is surprising - I have found it quite remarkable at times - how competent a system can be made to become, in terms of subjective believability.

 

[Steve williams]

Frank

I never knew you were an electrical engineer

 

[BruceD]

Is that your guitar amp??

'Fraid not-- my none too shabby 300B

BruceD

 

[fas42]

Frank

I never knew you were an electrical engineer

Well ... it states it in black and white on my profile page, and has always done so ...

 

[fas42]

Just looking around at German Physiks speakers, and came across this video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mrabo2snIA - best audio quality is at 720p.

The sense of the sound in this, to me, is what some are calling Presence - this is the standard that playback should be at, to be considered competent.