Assuming it works, do you know what it is doing? Something in the feedback loop perhaps?
What determines "believability of the reproduction illusion"
- Thread starter jkeny
- Start date
Assuming it works, do you know what it is doing? Something in the feedback loop perhaps?
Just came across this YouTube video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ynac5mvrcQ0, of the Newport show, and at the beginning these is a demo with nominally high performing components, using big Evolution Acoustic speakers - with truly awful, "hifi" sound. How many times does one bump into this - a thousand miles from being believeable, all that money thrown at it with little audible benefit ...
Frank, what do you think accounts for this? I wonder if it had anything to do with the digital source, which I did not notice the name of. The TT was not playing.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Hello Frank
Why are you making judgements about the sound of the system using a Youtube Video?? I am seeing this more and more of this on forums and frankly I don't get it.
Rob
I totally agree Rob and like you find judgments made on You Tube videos to be getting out of hand
FWIW Frank the Evolution Acoustics room was tied for my best sound at THE Show (tied with Philip O'Hanlon's room ) but then I again I was there. Pray tell Frank how you make that comment from You Tube. If you had read the comments from those that were there as to how great the sound was
It looks like the guy who took that video was using the video camera of his cell phone with needle pin hole size integrated microphone. Lol
I think Frank was just humorous.
I think Frank was just humorous.
Steve, I can only judge by what I hear, in the video - and in that particular clip there are qualities there that I recognise, which to me are a giveaway of what is troublesome about much audio sound, it has a "signature" that says loudly, "I'm a hifi system". The quality when you were listening may have been much superior, and hence the disparity in viewpoints.
Since this thread is about believability, that quality of being convincing should come through strongly in a video clip, I have pointed many times to YouTube items which are highly competent in the sound coming across - there is no need to be in the room to hear whether that quality may be possible, if a video obviously highlights issues, then it will be even more clear in the flesh.
Again, there is nothing inherently a problem in those components - but in that instance of of a system performing the sum is significantly less than the parts; it instantly reminded me of many, many demos I've heard over the years ...
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Yes, most likely the digital source - ambitious systems can highlight all the negatives of digital playback so easily, and are then impossible to listen to for any length of time.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Hello Frank
Why are you making judgements about the sound of the system using a Youtube Video?? I am seeing this more and more of this on forums and frankly I don't get it.
Rob
I totally disagree. You are making a judgement based on a You Tube video that was likely taken with a smart phone. IMO there is need to be in the room if you are going to provide opinion because everything else seems to be more speculation
Steve, note that I'm not using YouTube to tell how good the sound is in the room, that's obviously impossible - I'm using the clips to 'diagnose' whether the playback has any issues - and since I've been doing this sort of troubleshooting for 30 years I tend to immediately focus on any aspect of the sound that doesn't jell.
The way to think of it is like this - if the chap doing the video then moved to another room, where there happened to be the same people whose song is playing, and they were performing there live, no PA, just the raw sound of their voices, etc: would the qualities of their music making match the sound we just heard coming from the previous audio setup? If a system is convincing then the two soundscapes would have many similarities, irrespective of the quality of the clip's audio quality.
The way to think of it is like this - if the chap doing the video then moved to another room, where there happened to be the same people whose song is playing, and they were performing there live, no PA, just the raw sound of their voices, etc: would the qualities of their music making match the sound we just heard coming from the previous audio setup? If a system is convincing then the two soundscapes would have many similarities, irrespective of the quality of the clip's audio quality.
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"Sorry about not being in focus more of the time. Used a Nexus 6 phone and it seems to take a second or so to achieve focus. Also, I am just learning to pause the action so the viewer has time to appreciate to juicy gear that is at the show."
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That's a quote ? from the guy who shot that video (Frank's video link). ...There are three more parts (four all together, I watched them all).
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All those hotel rooms are highly reflective...walls and ceiling.
And if you are used to the sound recording from a Nexus 6 phone, in relation to being there in those rooms, you have only a small aperçu of each system from their full potential in their appropriate rooms (acoustically balanced and proper room size for the given loudspeaker's size and overall power response and room's volume filling to realistic real life performances).
The believability of the music reproduction is @ the lower range of the full scale potential in those hotel rooms...it's only mainly for show from audio dealers. ...And tra-la-la with all the tweaks that can be added to improve it further, like additional separate subwoofers and digital DSP room correction and multichannel speakers setups. Example: Auro-3D Music recordings and decoding.
If full illusion in music reconstitution from real life is the goal then the world of multichannel from immersive sounds of all provenances is the ultimate pursuit in that direction, I think.
A classical concert in a grand hall and transported into your room requires grand style/methods/techniques/ways.
Can you recreate a better illusion from a stereo setup? Better I don't know for sure, but certainly fabulous from the right recording material.
And stereo is easier to setup than a full immersive audio system like Auro-3D. ...Or just a 5.1 setup.
Is there a factor more than another that determines better what we're after; the closest illusion to real life music experience? Yes, the exploration beyond science and experience.
And is it from two loudspeakers only (subs or not)? The recording music material can answer that best.
To me, there is nothing more powerful than a live classical music concert with full orchestra. Get that in your room in ways to recreate that illusion, and I'll put your name in my blue book of essential reaches of life. Hey, it's the book of pleasures @ the highest caliber, with that extra sense/edge. :b
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That's a quote ? from the guy who shot that video (Frank's video link). ...There are three more parts (four all together, I watched them all).
_____
All those hotel rooms are highly reflective...walls and ceiling.
And if you are used to the sound recording from a Nexus 6 phone, in relation to being there in those rooms, you have only a small aperçu of each system from their full potential in their appropriate rooms (acoustically balanced and proper room size for the given loudspeaker's size and overall power response and room's volume filling to realistic real life performances).
The believability of the music reproduction is @ the lower range of the full scale potential in those hotel rooms...it's only mainly for show from audio dealers. ...And tra-la-la with all the tweaks that can be added to improve it further, like additional separate subwoofers and digital DSP room correction and multichannel speakers setups. Example: Auro-3D Music recordings and decoding.
If full illusion in music reconstitution from real life is the goal then the world of multichannel from immersive sounds of all provenances is the ultimate pursuit in that direction, I think.
A classical concert in a grand hall and transported into your room requires grand style/methods/techniques/ways.
Can you recreate a better illusion from a stereo setup? Better I don't know for sure, but certainly fabulous from the right recording material.
And stereo is easier to setup than a full immersive audio system like Auro-3D. ...Or just a 5.1 setup.
Is there a factor more than another that determines better what we're after; the closest illusion to real life music experience? Yes, the exploration beyond science and experience.
And is it from two loudspeakers only (subs or not)? The recording music material can answer that best.
To me, there is nothing more powerful than a live classical music concert with full orchestra. Get that in your room in ways to recreate that illusion, and I'll put your name in my blue book of essential reaches of life. Hey, it's the book of pleasures @ the highest caliber, with that extra sense/edge. :b
Rob, I'm not worrying about evaluating the positive qualities, merely whether any negative qualities are obvious - if they can be heard on a video clip, then they surely will be evident in the flesh. The AVshowreports channel uses a very recent LP pressing, at decent volumes, in the clips, and compression and lacklustre reproduction of the transients by some of the systems is very evident - this is useful feedback.Why are you making judgements about the sound of the system using a Youtube Video?? I am seeing this more and more of this on forums and frankly I don't get it.
Rob
When you say it is evident, you verified that what seemed compressed and lacklustre in the video was also the case in person? How else could you verify that. Your judgement seems to be based on the videos alone
Hello Frank
Why are you making judgements about the sound of the system using a Youtube Video?? I am seeing this more and more of this on forums and frankly I don't get it.
Rob
This is a crazy trend in the internet - unfortunately it is becoming usual. We had the problem of people expressing opinions concerning the sound quality of equipment they never listened - now we have the people that write with familiarity about the sound of equipment because they listened to it in youtube.
What is equally bad is when people pass judgement on electronics after walking in to a hifi show room and not liking the overall sound. They tick off those speakers and electronics as something they have heard. And in some cases claim 30 years of experience based on youtube and hifi shows.
How could the sound be anything but awful -- it was recorded on a cell phone and then played back on Youtube? (I think this is why the sound in every demo room in the video, recorded by the cell phone, sounded tinny.)
I had a hifi buddy that used to play me his system over the phone to either AB something or let me listen to an "improvement" ... used to put down the reciever and when his song had finished , I picked it up and used to gush absolute drivel to punish him for the waste of my time ...
The video is acting as a measuring tool - you have a record of what was presented to the microphone in separate rooms, using the same recording device, the particular camera in use. In one room the presentation comes across very impressively, in another rather lame. You can play those videos over and over again, jumping back and forth between them, even analyse the audio component using software - you're able to direct compare two different systems at your leisure.
Music enthusiasts compare recordings of a particular work, done at different times, by different musicians, all the time - no-one says that you can't do that, because you weren't in the recording hall of these events. Enough information is captured in a recording to tell one what's going on, if one knows how to listen for ...
