What is the benefit of very expensive DACs?

Joe Cohen

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judging cause and effect, and understanding the why is important......even though you can't always understand the real reasons for things.

the idea of getting beyond that 'tipping point' is a concept that has been my experience. which is why to judge most tweaks you need to reach a level of system synergy and maturation. what you hear needs to be 'right' (a personal feeling, not fact) to then judge differences verses improvements. do you have the basics covered? and if you discover that something was holding things back in some way; you need to back track and examine any decisions made with that restriction involved.

i've avoided gear with coloration in my signal path so i was not needing to balance that out and have to go down that rabbit hole of-off setting additions.

coming back to dacs, servers, or related network tweaks; it's the same. you first have to select a dac that is synergistic with your system, so choosing gear to optimize that dac is as linear as possible. not a trivial pursuit.

i think the one exception is adding multiple turntables and cartridges; where different flavors in your source is a choice many make; but again ideally you started out with a system that is synergistic and mature. a good platform for multiple directions.

‘The phrase “system synergy and maturation” is very apt and descriptive. There’s a lot packed into that.
 
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microstrip

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Mike, this is fascinating, and maybe deserves it's own thread.

Why are there multiple tt/arm/cart setups...but only single server/single dac systems, even amongst the richest audiophiles?

If it's all about linearity and accuracy, which I agree is a reasonable objective, why then run different flavours for LP but not digital?

Are you really saying honestly that it wouldn't be nice to run a Pacific or ACerat dac, or TotalDac-12 etc, m alongside yr Select for some tonal freedom?

Why LP but not digital?

If you read with care you will find that most people owning multiple turntables listen most of the time to one of them and ignore the others. The many turntables are the result of an evolution, but some audiophiles are also collectors and keep everything. I mostly keep what I do not manage to sell! ;)
 

AMR / iFi audio

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If you read with care you will find that most people owning multiple turntables listen most of the time to one of them and ignore the others. The many turntables are the result of an evolution, but some audiophiles are also collectors and keep everything. I mostly keep what I do not manage to sell! ;)
Trying different configurations and learning through buying-selling or lending-borrowing, and then keeping what fits best seems to be the strategy I enjoy the most.
 
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Mikem53

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Some relatively inexpensive DACS are that way because the manufacturer sells Direct, larger quantities, thinner faceplates.. Schiit says the Yggdrasil would sell for $6K+ if It wasn’t selling direct.
I don’t believe price necessarily determines SQ alone. Some of these high end R2R DACs require precise matching of parts and components which is very time consuming and expensive.. that seem justified to an extent..
the point of diminishing returns, many are willing to spend exponentially for that last few percent.. anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
Like many fine mechanical watches.. A great ETA movement can be had for a few hundred dollars, the rest is jewelry.. applies to audio as well.. IMO
 
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Joe Cohen

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Some relatively inexpensive DACS are that way because the manufacturer sells Direct, larger quantities, thinner faceplates.. Schiit says the Yggdrasil would sell for $6K+ if It wasn’t selling direct.
I don’t believe price necessarily determines SQ alone. Some of these high end R2R DACs require precise matching of parts and components which is very time consuming and expensive.. that seem justified to an extent..
the point of diminishing returns, many are willing to spend exponentially for that last few percent.. anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
Like many fine mechanical watches.. A great ETA movement can be had for a few hundred dollars, the rest is jewelry.. applies to audio as well.. IMO
With respect, I would say that the analogy with watches does not hold. If the only value under consideration is accurate time competently delivered then in terms of sound an iPhone driving your system would be all you would need and the rest would be jewelry. The question posed by this thread is what are the benefits, if any, of very expensive DACs. In terms of watches, if the only value sought is the ability to glance at your wrist and know your appointment starts in 6 minutes, then yes, any Swatch will do. But if the real value sought is a more comprehensive experience such as the feel of gold and fine leather against your skin then the Swatch cannot fulfill the need. In terms of DACs as you spend more what is sought is better sound (at least in my book). The question is of course over broad because the reality is that high price on its own is no guarantee of superior sound. SW1X, which I represent and which I know most intimately is a very clear example of why the increase in price as you go up the chain matters. The working heart of all their DACs from the $2875 DAC I Special to their $118,000 DAC V Signature is the same R2R network, but the nature of the circuit and the choice of parts and materials surrounding that heart determines the SQ pure and simple. Is a $55,000 DAC V Special worth the money? It would only be fair to answer that question for oneself if you were able to hear the difference between it and lesser DACs, leaving aside whether it is in your budget. Is a BMW i8 worth the money? Does a $148,000 automobile drive better and feel more articulate on the road than a Tesla Model 3? Is it to your taste or do you prefer a Mercedes Maybach? In the case of SW1X each successive model in each of the five levels offers an improvement in terms of absolute SQ. The difference between a standard quality mains transformer (which unfortunately you will find on some very expensive DACs) and an SHiB Double C Core transformer is profound as is the difference between a capacitively coupled output and a transformer coupled output. At the end of the day the value must be determined by each individual. Skepticism, especially in the context of any high priced luxury item, is a healthy mechanism as not all DACs are equal in performance based on price, but it is equally important to keep open the possibility that genuine value exists at the highest levels.
 

Mikem53

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Skepticism, especially in the context of any high priced luxury item, is a healthy mechanism as not all DACs are equal in performance based on price, but it is equally important to keep open the possibility that genuine value exists at the highest levels.

I will say that I don’t disagree with what you’re saying.. Many think one only needs to spend $50 on a DAC and all amps sound the same. We know this to be true, for those that believe it. In my audio experiences of my own and decades of attending shows , audio club members systems, etc. I had the pleasure of hearing systems far more expensive than I personally could afford or relative to what I’m willing to spend..
I also learned that many of those systems didn’t live up to the price/hype, but some were outstanding ! Some of the best were DIY systems and speakers that didn’t look like much, but lots of time and passion went into them..
I already spent a lot of money only to learn I didn’t have to, on some things.
I’m always chasing that last small percentage that I think will get me the sonic perfection I desire, but relativity has it affects on me.
In all fairness, I’m open minded, but I don’t read much on or have access to DAC’s costing $150K or more, knowing I likely will never own one. I have seen a few brands and models on here I didn’t know existed.
Old dog here, still learning..
Now I must go pick up the Bimmer at the shop, where did I leave the keys to the Toyota..
Happy Listening!
 

MDAguy

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There are some natural laws, in physics, mathematics and such...but also laws of economics and such..

Supply = Demand is one, and by extension the old saying "You get what you pay for" comes to mind..

Were something to be of inferior quality, the market place will eventually weed it out vs something of better quality (and value).

Over time, this has the effect of setting aside the best from the second best, and so on by virtue of the fact that the demand will be such that it exceeds the supply by a large enough margin so as to command a premium price.

This has the ability to correct itself in real time, and in the long run brands that stand out, will stand out for very valid reasons... but sometimes, these brands will then ride on their fame and reputation and allow their quality to slip... but you always (almost always) notice a comparable slip in price.. as again, the infallible market will not sustain the higher price for a lower quality items.

This applies to a lot fo things... it also applies to DAC's... You get what you pay for, but do accept this reality... that the curve representing the rate of return for your dollar will be steep at the beginning, and by the end, be extremely shallow...

So a $18000 DAC isn't half as good as a $36,000 DAC, but maybe only 1 or 2% worse in performance... Where as a $100 DAC will be likely an a lot inferior to a $18000 DAC... whether any of this represents differences audible to YOUR hearing, and sensitivity is yet a whole other story.

Buy the best you can AFFORD, and always strive to do so.
 

AMR / iFi audio

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I mostly agree with what you said @SJS992. A higher price would often translate into a better SQ, but that is not always the case. The SQ depends on many factors. If a DAC matches the system, the type of music, the interference, the system itself and surely personal preference. Buy the best within the price range you can afford makes sense to me too, but we need to keep in mind that a $2k DAC can sometimes compete with $5k DAC.
 

musicfirst1

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If you own a computer that has a sound card, that's all you really need to enjoy digital music. :rolleyes:
If you have a sharp rock, and a stick and four pieces of wire, that's all you really need to enjoy records...:oops:
 
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AMR / iFi audio

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Well, I guess it was a joke or perhaps what @mep meant was that a computer with a sound-card (and a set of speakers) is a minimum needed to play digital music. Not an ideal solution, but if we interpret it this way then technically that comment would be correct.
 

nonesup

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Ah! so my Aries Cerat, it must be the best DAC in the world: it weighs 60 Kg, it cannot be updated other than by sending it to the factory and it only plays PCM ...... but it really sounds great.
 
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christoph

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I believe @mep is being sarcastic as his message has the rolling eye emojis
And that was 8 years ago.
The computer audiophilia has since then moved quite fast ;)
 
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QuadDiffuser

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Though neither AC cables nor analog interconnects - Audience SX (spare) vs Iconoclast UPOCC 4x4 (my current reference) - were exactly the same, the benefits of expensive DACs price multiple (>100x sans L90 preamp) is quite evident in my comparison setup. Yes, it’s a case of diminishing returns, but I’m quite OK with the top dog ! The Topping D90 MQA is great value at US$799, and so is the Topping L90 headphone amp / linestage preamplifier at US$499, but my Topping combo (used for my PC desktop headphone system) pales in comparison to my fully-loaded Select II DAC. But I “love” them both, each in their own way, as they’re both my “babies”!
 
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jeromelang

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I find that with better designed, (not necessarily more expensive) dacs i start to hear more digital problems...

- sonic degradation when music on optical discs are not cued up to play with the correct methodology

- sonic degradation when a transport & dac are not powered up in the correct sequence

- sonic degradation when the dac isn't shut down for refreshing and it has to sync to another incoming data stream when input is being switched

- sonic degradation caused by playing files with different sampling rates consecutively

- sonic degradation when optical cables are not connected in the correct directionality
 

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