What is the benefit of very expensive DACs?

[Bruce B]

I could be kidding myself, but I thought the difference between the EMM labs DAC2X and MSB signature was quite substantial. Others have reported the same.

The differences between the uber-DAC's I've tried, I feel is 1% or less.

Playback Designs MPS-5
MBS Diamond
dCS Scarlatti
dCS 954
DAD AX24
Phasure
Horus
EMM labs XDS1
EMM labs DAC8 IV
EMM labs DAC6se

 

[Andre Marc]

I heard a M2 Vaughan. Sounds very good, not as good as the best analog gear but anyhow.

Now my Question: What is the benefit of a DAC lets say for over 20k? The last 5% or less or just the name?

I am using a Windows 8 with Foobar and Jplay (please do not start any discussion). I do not think that JRiver 19 is better.

Josef

In Germany it is impossible to get one of the big DACs for testing

There is very little benefit according to John Atkinson in the new issue of Stereophile in which he
reviews the Marantz NA-11S1 file player/streamer/DAC. It costs $3500. He said it was so close to the $45,000 MSB Diamond stack
as to be disturbing to think about the $41,500 difference. He said it was "too close for comfort", even though in the end
the MSB had a few percentage points of better imaging.

 

[NorthStar]

What about you Andre, what do you think?

 

[Andre Marc]

There is very little benefit according to John Atkinson in the new issue of Stereophile in which he
reviews the Marantz NA-11S1 file player/streamer/DAC. It costs $3500. He said it was so close to the $45,000 MSB Diamond stack
as to be disturbing to think about the $41,500 difference. He said it was "too close for comfort", even though in the end
the MSB had a few percentage points of better imaging.

I have not had a DAC over $5000 in my system so I have no opinion. Of course, I have heard all the big names at shows..dCS, EMM, MSB etc..

 

[rblnr]

There is very little benefit according to John Atkinson in the new issue of Stereophile in which he
reviews the Marantz NA-11S1 file player/streamer/DAC. It costs $3500. He said it was so close to the $45,000 MSB Diamond stack
as to be disturbing to think about the $41,500 difference. He said it was "too close for comfort", even though in the end
the MSB had a few percentage points of better imaging.

I really appreciate Atkinson's candor here. Putting components of such a price difference on basically equal footing is rarely seen in reviews and I don't think that's because it's so rarely the case with certain types of components and cables etc

 

[Andre Marc]

I really appreciate Atkinson's candor here. Putting components of such a price difference on basically equal footing is rarely seen in reviews and I don't think that's because it's so rarely the case with certain types of components and cables etc

FYI, I have that unit in for review, and I can tell you it sounds superb. So does the SA-11S3 SACD player/DAC.

 

[FrantzM]

I really appreciate Atkinson's candor here. Putting components of such a price difference on basically equal footing is rarely seen in reviews and I don't think that's because it's so rarely the case with certain types of components and cables etc

So do I. Refreshing. a detour from the usual High End Audio Evaluation rules which seem to be: More expensive = Better in all aspects.

 

[Andre Marc]

So do I. Refreshing. a detour from the usual High End Audio Evaluation rules which seem to be: More expensive = Better in all aspects.

Suggest you read Antony Michaelson's (of Musical Fidelity) rant in Sam Tellig's column....brutal.

 

[FrantzM]

Suggest you read Antony Michaelson's (of Musical Fidelity) rant in Sam Tellig's column....brutal.

URL?
Link?

 

[Andre Marc]

URL?
Link?

Nope. Just got the issue. October. Won't be online for a month or so.

 

[edorr]

The differences between the uber-DAC's I've tried, I feel is 1% or less.

Playback Designs MPS-5
MBS Diamond
dCS Scarlatti
dCS 954
DAD AX24
Phasure
Horus
EMM labs XDS1
EMM labs DAC8 IV
EMM labs DAC6se

Based on my emm labs / msb shootout I beg to differ. Also, I recall you mentioned it was mandatory to get the $10k galaxy clock to get the most out of the MSB diamond. If this is all within the 1% margin of error that was quite a strong statement.

 

[microstrip]

I really appreciate Atkinson's candor here. Putting components of such a price difference on basically equal footing is rarely seen in reviews and I don't think that's because it's so rarely the case with certain types of components and cables etc

I would have preferred if he had compared it with the DCS Vivaldi stack, as I have no experience with MSB ...

Although I will have to wait until the magazine is online before being able to comment on the article, it is nice to have a quality Marantz product, developed using a mix of technological and subjective methods and concepts, receiving such high praise. M. Fremer already had warned us in the Analogplanet months ago: http://www.analogplanet.com/content/marantz-launches-na-11s1-reference-class-network-audio-player-and-usb-dac

 

[Ronm1]

Once you hit the $8-10k barrier, then you're talking <1% difference and unless your room is acoustically treated and you have a great set of speakers, you're not going to hear it.

Case in point... these DSD transfers I'm doing with different A/D converters that I will soon post, I can not hear a differnce in a less than optimized room. That's why I cringe every time I read a review of a mega-buck piece of cable or something and the reviewers room is less than optimal... IMO

So true!!!
Until my room was treated, this includes power, differences for me were essentially a crap shoot. After it was a revelation. Differences were no longer that hard to tell if they made a diff for the better. The added Benny was how close good gear was to very good gear. Bringing up the wisdom of that expense. Cables, tweaks, mods really became noticeable if they were worth it. Never mind the h/w. Course like most things it also had its down side.

 

[asiufy]

Seems like Atkinson finally lost it, if he really wrote something like that.
I guess all that measuring got to him...

I'm with edorr, the differences are not small, even between similarly priced products. Whether one can be said to be "better" than the other it's up for debate, but the difference between the dCS Paganini I had here and the MSB stack is very clear, and perceptible even in the adjecent room.


alexandre

 

[Andre Marc]

Seems like Atkinson finally lost it, if he really wrote something like that.
I guess all that measuring got to him...

I'm with edorr, the differences are not small, even between similarly priced products. Whether one can be said to be "better" than the other it's up for debate, but the difference between the dCS Paganini I had here and the MSB stack is very clear, and perceptible even in the adjecent room.


alexandre

If you read what I wrote, he in the end said the MSB was "better" in a few areas: dynamics, "pacing". But not 12 X better.

Why do you think he has "lost" it?

 

[asiufy]

You just wrote "better imaging", read your own post! And I don't consider that to be MSB's strong point. The dCS runs rings around the MSB in this aspect. Funny, no?

I haven't heard this particular Marantz product, but I was interested in it as a streamer only, until I read a negative review. I am familiar with their CD players, top to bottom of the line, and none of them are even close to MSB's Analog DAC, let alone the Diamond. That's why I think he lost it. There's simply no comparison. Unless Marantz pulled a miracle here, also highly unlikely.

I wonder what Jon Iverson thinks about it, as he's had the MSB for a while.

alexandre

 

[Andre Marc]

You just wrote "better imaging", read your own post! And I don't consider that to be MSB's strong point. The dCS runs rings around the MSB in this aspect. Funny, no?

I haven't heard this particular Marantz product, but I was interested in it as a streamer only, until I read a negative review. I am familiar with their CD players, top to bottom of the line, and none of them are even close to MSB's Analog DAC, let alone the Diamond. That's why I think he lost it. There's simply no comparison. Unless Marantz pulled a miracle here, also highly unlikely.

I wonder what Jon Iverson thinks about it, as he's had the MSB for a while.

alexandre

Where did you read the negative review? I think is the first published review..but I could be wrong.

Which Marantz disc players have you heard recently?

I don't believe JI commented on this unit at all. But he will in a future Follow Up column.

 

[Andre Marc]

You just wrote "better imaging", read your own post! And I don't consider that to be MSB's strong point. The dCS runs rings around the MSB in this aspect. Funny, no?

I haven't heard this particular Marantz product, but I was interested in it as a streamer only, until I read a negative review. I am familiar with their CD players, top to bottom of the line, and none of them are even close to MSB's Analog DAC, let alone the Diamond. That's why I think he lost it. There's simply no comparison. Unless Marantz pulled a miracle here, also highly unlikely.

I wonder what Jon Iverson thinks about it, as he's had the MSB for a while.

alexandre

I found this review:

"Regardless of input, the NA-11s1 proved an extremely able performer with Marantz's trademark clean, crisp and open sound. The NA-11s1's DSD performance proved exceptionally clean and open, yet blessed with a beautifully lilting, unforced quality that sounded about as natural as I've heard from digital. The NA-11s1 shows just what is possible from modern high resolution digital sources. It has a plethora of facilities, including stable streaming and USB provision, and is beautifully built too. It's subtle, smooth and intricately detailed sound is always musical, setting an enviable standard!"
– Nick Tate, HiFi News

 

[rockitman]

best bang for your buck dac/transport, imho..PS Audio Perfect wave Mk2 I2S connected $8k MSRP. I think there was a promotion a month or two ago for the dac and trans for $4k.

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-139699...ave-dac-mkii-pwt-memory-player-promotion.aspx

 

[dallasjustice]

At a certain point the differences between DACs vary only based on system synergy and the type of sound you like. There's alot of variability in price to performance with DACs. The $10k plus DACs are for the experienced DAC buyers that are looking for particular sound. I would never make my first DAC purchase at the uber high price end. I would narrow things down by listening to polar opposites first to see what you prefer.