What Moderate Priced Quality Capacitors???

[Jazzbo]

Hello all,

I hope everyone had a great holiday and your New Year will be the very best. As some of you know I am having a moderately priced tube tape head pre amp built as a 2 chassis design which is why I posted here. I know that many of you have modified phono and tape pre amps with various and sundry caps and resistors. I would love to get some leads and info on "moderate" priced capacitors tht can change the sound of pre amps for the better. I would also like to know if higher quality resistors makes that great of a difference? I am sure that high quality caps and resistors are generally not used throughout, but, where should one spend dollars for the best caps/resistors in the circuit? Should it be the input or output stage? Finally, please provide the names of some of the better sounding priced caps selling between $5 and $25 dollars each. Lots of questions from an audio lover who wants to know. Thanks all.

jazzbo bob

 

[tony ky ma]

Hi Bob
A tube preamp usually don't come with a input cap, check you preamp's output stage is with cap or transformer, if it is cap then that will be the first up grade and also the cap in between stages, different kind of cap will come different kind of sound like paper in oil and metal foil sound soft and sweet etc. up to your favor. $25 level is the mid price level, try Mondrof ans Solen, resistor does not have same level of difference as cap does so invest in cap is the better way only transformer can beat cap
happy new year
tony ma

 

[Jazzbo]

Good morning from Georgia Mr. Tony Ky Ma,

I hope you and yours will have a great New Year as well. I am having the pre amp designed and built by a gentleman who designs and sells a MC phono pre amp with separate power supply. I am sure he will use as much of this design and incorporate it into my new tape head pre amp. While I can't afford the top shelf/high price caps I am looking for the best sound I can get using caps within the $10 to $25 dollar price point. I am sure that in some cases a lower priced cap may not mean bad sound.

I am sure there are capacitors within the above price point that sound good and will be good for my tape head pre amp. I am not trying to replicate the build quality of the $4000 dollar tape pre amps, but want to get as close as I can for around $2000 dollars. Right now I am trying to do as much reading as I can in order to find out more about what's available, what the prices are and how they can benefit the sound of my pre amp. Those such as yourself, who have actually modified their electronics with new caps are in a great position to provide valuable info. Those changes I know made great gains in what you all heard and that's the experience I want to hear about. Thank you again Mr. Ma and I hope to hear from others. Please feel free to tell me about other experiences you've had. Do you use a tape head pre amp presently? If so, what do you use? I don't know of anyone here in the Georgia area who has the tape head pre amp made by Charles or the Tape Project as well as well recorded tapes I can listen to. Well, I don't intend to move back to Baltimore, Maryland where that experience was available to me.

jazzbo bob

 

[Jazzbo]

Good afternoon Mr. Tomelex,

Thank you so much for this information. It would appear that caps are comprised of the substances you mention in your post. It's important to have this kind of info in order to know what to look for. Thanks again sir.

jazzbo bob

 

[FrantzM]

Jazzbo

Why not discuss this with the person designing the preamp? Just dropping a component in a circuit doesn't necessary change the sound "for the better" .. I have seen stellar sounding (and stratosphere-priced) components with relatively mundane components. In some cases replacing these with "better" did not make them sound any better.
my $0.02

 

[Jazzbo]

Good Saturday FrantzM,

Thank you so much for chiming in. Actually, I am communicate with the builder. I am just trying to give him some help regarding how the pre amp might sound better. He has been experimenting with various components and lots of listening. My plan is to purchase some capacitors he does not have so that he can put them in the mix to see what he comes up with. Thanks much sir.

jazzbo bob

 

[microstrip]

Jazzbo

Why not discuss this with the person designing the preamp? Just dropping a component in a circuit doesn't necessary change the sound "for the better" .. I have seen stellar sounding (and stratosphere-priced) components with relatively mundane components. In some cases replacing these with "better" did not make them sound any better.
my $0.02

Excellent advice, unless you really want to change the type of sound of the preamplifier.

Just in case, the best value for money we can get in Europe are the Mundorf capacitors. They have several grades, are very reasonably priced, and are nowadays used by most famous manufacturers, such as VTL, Sonusfaber and Magico.

 

[microstrip]

You want to "change the sound of pre-amps for the better".

If you want to not change the sound of the electronic signal then:

Teflon
Polystyrene
Polypropylene
Poly carbonate

Teflon is closest to perfect, Poly carbonate is less close.

Tom,

If it was not for the introduction I quoted in bold, I would keep silent ...

Teflon is terribly triboelectric and a capacitor is much more than just two conductors spaced by a dielectric. Teflon capacitors are also known to be some of the worst components in terms of burn-in. All this is not part of perfection! Also I have read that some people in the industry say that Teflon capacitors have a typical coloration, that audiophiles enjoy a lot. It was written in an interview with a designer I do not remember the name anymore.

 

[Jazzbo]

Hello to you microstrip,

I am familiar with the famous "Mundorf" capacitors. I think they are in the very elite class of caps with few others being able to come up to their level. I will be looking to see if they can be had for reasonable prices. Thanks much sir.

jazzbo bob

 

[tony ky ma]

Please feel free to tell me about other experiences you've had. Do you use a tape head pre amp presently? If so, what do you use? I don't know of anyone here in the Georgia area who has the tape head pre amp made by Charles or the Tape Project as well as well recorded tapes I can listen to. Well, I don't intend to move back to Baltimore, Maryland where that experience was available to me.


Hi Bob
I posted some about the modification of R2R preamp in here, now I am going to design a new all tube preamp for tape and vinyl without negative feed back , I like to use transformers but will cost a bite more, please try to read some of my post maybe that can give you some help
tony ma

 

[stellavox]

Regarding resistors, I use the mil spec RN55 or 60 metal films. There are certainly "better" like metal foil or tantalum (don't know a source tho) - however these seem to be only available in a small range of values) and cost upwards of $5 each. Regarding caps, you can't go wrong with polystyrenes but they are hard to find in values above 10's of nanofarads (nF), and tube amplifier stage coupling caps values seem to be mostly above 100nf (= 0.1 microfarad - uF) all the way up to 10's of uF for transistor circuits. The gold/silver/foil Mundorfs are very good but upwards of $100 each AND are physically quite large. I understand that there are other good relatively inexpensive caps - polypropylene and teflon-based. Clarity and Hovland are some names but I haven't tried them.

For what it's worth (and as a hobbiest); passive components like resistors and capacitors with wire leads (versus those that "surface mount" directly to PC boards) are becoming harder and harder to find. I would estimate that in 10 years they will NOT be newly manufactured. Couple this with the European no-lead requirements, and I read that the new surface-mount capacitors (and some resistor types) don't sound very good.

SO maybe in 10 years, we will look back to now (I'd actually opine the last 20 years) being the "golden age" of audio electronics. Enjoy it while you got it.

AND Happy New Year - resolutions anyone?????

Charles

 

[microstrip]

Micro, really now. Any evidence specifically related to Teflon (PTFE) caps in regards to this "triboelectric" problem? Do you listen to these capacitors while stomping on them with your foot! aha aha ah.

Tom,

I learn about it decades ago. It was written in the excellent "Low Level Measurements Handbook" form Keithley Instruments (I suppose you know the brand). I still have old my paper copy of the first edition. And I did not laugh when I was designing and building circuits that needed Teflon breadboards because printed circuit board would be too leaky for the needed purposes.

Just to end, no we did not use them in ball rooms ... But the Teflon wires rested on rubber mounts, just in case someone could sneeze.

 

[Jazzbo]

Hello everyone,

This is exciting and I am learning so much. This is an excellent forum where you all are quick to provide advice and that even include those who sell their products. I just think that's wonderful. What a great group of guys and maybe some ladies?

jazzbo bob

 

[MylesBAstor]

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

 

[microstrip]

Yes, Micro, I am in agreement with you about the effect and also though, its effect in a capacitor under normal conditions of use in audio is not a concern though.

Thanks Tom, but I have read too often that "the effect of XXX under normal conditions of use in audio is not a concern though" to take it as an argument per se.

Curious that so many people want to debate in detail specific and tricky aspects of audio just to shelter under the "no concern under normal conditions" flag. Don't they know that the high-end is not a normal condition?

 

[microstrip]

I hear you and I am being very specific about the effect you mentioned and its reality on a teflon capacitor. Teflons measure the best and thats general agreement between most of the heavy hitters of audio design as far as I can tell.

Can you nominate the heavy hitters of audio design who choose their signal capacitors by measurements? And then from that list those who use Teflon capacitors?

 

[Jazzbo]

I actually thought that depending totally on measurements went out with Mr. Julian Hirsch back when he reported for Stereo Magazine. I was under the impression that the ear was the final key to what a component sounds like. That's not to say that measurements don't have their place. As a matter of fact, I don't see lots of measurements in any of the major audio ezines or magazines now. Am I headed down the wrong road?

jazzbo

 

[MylesBAstor]

I actually thought that depending totally on measurements went out with Mr. Julian Hirsch back when he reported for Stereo Magazine. I was under the impression that the ear was the final key to what a component sounds like. That's not to say that measurements don't have their place. As a matter of fact, I don't see lots of measurements in any of the major audio ezines or magazines now. Am I headed down the wrong road?

jazzbo

I'd like to know what designers Tom has been talking to. Must be from some fourth rate outfit because sure as hell isn't any high-end designer I know. Just utter nonsense.

Scroll down to 1980.

http://waltjung.org/Classic_Articles.html

 

[DonH50]

There seems to be a bit of a disconnect. Tom didn't say "only", just that designers did look at the measurements. I suspect a lot of top designers do ook at measurements/specs, then do as Tom said and and use that as a starting point for "voicing" their products. I do not think measurements and listening need to be mutually exclusive design parameters.

 

[microstrip]

There seems to be a bit of a disconnect. Tom didn't say "only", just that designers did look at the measurements. I suspect a lot of top designers do ook at measurements/specs, then do as Tom said and and use that as a starting point for "voicing" their products. I do not think measurements and listening need to be mutually exclusive design parameters.

Don,
My main question is not philosophy, but a practical question - what measurement do designers use to select their signal capacitors for sound quality? Except for those capacitors that have very poor characteristics and no one uses in the signal path, is there any measurement that correlates with sound quality?