What music for what room?

[DaveyF]

I brought this topic up awhile back in another thread, but today it struck home more than ever. IMO, there is definitely a particular type of music that works better with specific speakers/gear and room size. Today, I had the pleasure of listening to a pair of Pipedreams in a VERY large room/home theater system. The system was pretty good at what I call "BIG" scale music...large orchestral pieces and pieces that require greater spread between instruments. OTOH, it fell down on the more intimate stuff and wasn't very impressive on small scale jazz, etc. The other day I also listened to a friends system ( consisting of all ARC gear and with a pair of Wilson Sophias). On small jazz ensembles it was very good, BUT on rock, NOT good at all. My friends room is on the small size, appx 13x15'. We listened to Jazz at the Pawn Shop...good, we listened to Uriah Heep Live....sounded just terrible. IMO, due to the fact that the room was too small and the speakers could't do justice to this kind of rock. I know many will say that the perfect system can do both well...Not so sure this is true...thoughts?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Not sure the system has been created that can make Uriah heep sound good.

Tim

 

[DaveyF]

Not sure the system has been created that can make Uriah heep sound good.

Tim

LOL, that's not nice Tim.
The particular LP we were listening to was my UK Bronze label original Uriah Heep Live double LP. It doesn't sound good on my system either, however, I have heard it played on a pair of Avantgarde Trio's with Basshorns in a huge room and it sounded superb. Like I am saying. perhaps it's a case of "horses for courses"

 

[Bill Hart]

Part of this, aside from the capability of the equipment/system, is the room and what i'd call the 'natural volume' of a particular recording. Just like VTA being 'locked in,' there is a certain loudness that seems to be right for each recording- and in the process, that interacts with the room, acoustics, etc. I guess you could listen nearfield to a symphony over a small system (I used to do that with my old Quads), but a big system in a larger room is going to work better, I think. Part of this may be psychoacoustics, I don't know, but trying to cram 105 instruments into a small space and playing it at realistic levels is tricky, I think. And, apropos the 'natural volume' thing, there is a point where unless you want that sort of hard sound that comes with distorted rock at crazy db levels, a jazz combo or pop singer is going to sound 'too loud' and becomes unrealistic in my experience, more like it is being played 'at you' by the system, and sounds forced, rather than natural. I think there are alot of factors in play, though. Hard rock requires some kick ass bass thwack, which is not something I think you look for in a natural sounding acoustic or jazz, or even classical recording, although admittedly all of those genres can generate deep bass tones on a good recording. (Having just come back from a far too loud guitar 'hero' type concert last night, I can tell you that reproducing that kind of level on anything but a big system would be crazy, sorta like driving the KIA at 200 mph. You could do it, but I wouldn't want to be in the seat, if you know what i mean.)

 

[DaveyF]

Part of this, aside from the capability of the equipment/system, is the room and what i'd call the 'natural volume' of a particular recording. Just like VTA being 'locked in,' there is a certain loudness that seems to be right for each recording- and in the process, that interacts with the room, acoustics, etc. I guess you could listen nearfield to a symphony over a small system (I used to do that with my old Quads), but a big system in a larger room is going to work better, I think. Part of this may be psychoacoustics, I don't know, but trying to cram 105 instruments into a small space and playing it at realistic levels is tricky, I think. And, apropos the 'natural volume' thing, there is a point where unless you want that sort of hard sound that comes with distorted rock at crazy db levels, a jazz combo or pop singer is going to sound 'too loud' and becomes unrealistic in my experience, more like it is being played 'at you' by the system, and sounds forced, rather than natural. I think there are alot of factors in play, though. Hard rock requires some kick ass bass thwack, which is not something I think you look for in a natural sounding acoustic or jazz, or even classical recording, although admittedly all of those genres can generate deep bass tones on a good recording. (Having just come back from a far too loud guitar 'hero' type concert last night, I can tell you that reproducing that kind of level on anything but a big system would be crazy, sorta like driving the KIA at 200 mph. You could do it, but I wouldn't want to be in the seat, if you know what i mean.)

I agree with you, whart. To the point that I suspect a lot of us pick a certain type of music to listen to on our systems, knowing that that particular genre will show off our systems better and be an all around better listening experience. I know I am a little ( ok a lot) guilty of doing this.

In my small room, I have to listen in the nearfield to symphony and it's nowhere near as realistic as listening in a huge room with large speakers. OTOH, small jazz ensembles, small choral ensembles etc, work just fine. Hard rock doesn't like my system at all...for the reasons that you elaborate so well on.

 

[Andre Marc]

I brought this topic up awhile back in another thread, but today it struck home more than ever. IMO, there is definitely a particular type of music that works better with specific speakers/gear and room size. Today, I had the pleasure of listening to a pair of Pipedreams in a VERY large room/home theater system. The system was pretty good at what I call "BIG" scale music...large orchestral pieces and pieces that require greater spread between instruments. OTOH, it fell down on the more intimate stuff and wasn't very impressive on small scale jazz, etc. The other day I also listened to a friends system ( consisting of all ARC gear and with a pair of Wilson Sophias). On small jazz ensembles it was very good, BUT on rock, NOT good at all. My friends room is on the small size, appx 13x15'. We listened to Jazz at the Pawn Shop...good, we listened to Uriah Heep Live....sounded just terrible. IMO, due to the fact that the room was too small and the speakers could't do justice to this kind of rock. I know many will say that the perfect system can do both well...Not so sure this is true...thoughts?

Sorry, Davey, I am going to jump in and totally disagree.

This is all a matter of perception of the listener.

You are doing something that many dog owners do..assigning human characteristics to something that is not.

All the tubes, transistors, capacitors, cables, drivers, and enclosures in any system don't know the difference between Lang Lang or Elton John, or Andres Segovia or Jimi Hendrix.

On my system, I swear to God, I can put put Jimi Plays Berkeley, or Band of Gyspys, some Bill Evans Trio, or Joan Baez, or some White Stripes and it all sounds absolutely
believable to me.

My only limitation is volume, because of my room is on the small side, so it can get overloaded regardless of musical genre, but I rarely listen at volumes that get me into that territory.

When I hear somebody say a speaker, or a system doesn't "do" rock, or orchestral, or jazz...I cringe.

The ONLY way equipment might be suited to certain types of music is by PHYSICAL limitations, like olde ESLs, which quite simply would arc and peter out on large scale music.
The newer ESLs from what I heard from Sanders and King Sound, do not have these issues..not to mention Martin Logan's with powered subs.

I think this might be a case of a bit of over intellectualizing hfi!

Just my take.

 

[Andre Marc]

I agree with you, whart. To the point that I suspect a lot of us pick a certain type of music to listen to on our systems, knowing that that particular genre will show off our systems better and be an all around better listening experience. I know I am a little ( ok a lot) guilty of doing this.

In my small room, I have to listen in the nearfield to symphony and it's nowhere near as realistic as listening in a huge room with large speakers. OTOH, small jazz ensembles, small choral ensembles etc, work just fine. Hard rock doesn't like my system at all...for the reasons that you elaborate so well on.

Are you aware that many HUGE sounding classic rock albums were mixed on mini monitors in tiny control rooms?

 

[Andre Marc]

Part of this, aside from the capability of the equipment/system, is the room and what i'd call the 'natural volume' of a particular recording. Just like VTA being 'locked in,' there is a certain loudness that seems to be right for each recording- and in the process, that interacts with the room, acoustics, etc. I guess you could listen nearfield to a symphony over a small system (I used to do that with my old Quads), but a big system in a larger room is going to work better, I think. Part of this may be psychoacoustics, I don't know, but trying to cram 105 instruments into a small space and playing it at realistic levels is tricky, I think. And, apropos the 'natural volume' thing, there is a point where unless you want that sort of hard sound that comes with distorted rock at crazy db levels, a jazz combo or pop singer is going to sound 'too loud' and becomes unrealistic in my experience, more like it is being played 'at you' by the system, and sounds forced, rather than natural. I think there are alot of factors in play, though. Hard rock requires some kick ass bass thwack, which is not something I think you look for in a natural sounding acoustic or jazz, or even classical recording, although admittedly all of those genres can generate deep bass tones on a good recording. (Having just come back from a far too loud guitar 'hero' type concert last night, I can tell you that reproducing that kind of level on anything but a big system would be crazy, sorta like driving the KIA at 200 mph. You could do it, but I wouldn't want to be in the seat, if you know what i mean.)

I agree with much of what you say.

But if the goal is reproducing the actual vibe and ambiance of a live performance, one is only going to be let down. One of the British mags has tag line.."Reproduction of the Recorded Arts". We have to suspend disbelief.

I never try to pretend I am listening to anything but a recording. I can connect with the music and not mentally masturbate about how "real" it sounds.

Actually, to me what is WORSE than a large scale musical event being scaled down, is the ARTIFICIAL scaling up of a recording, where the voice sounds like the singer is 20 feet tall. I heard this on the TAD system at CES.
Impressive, but artificial.

 

[JackD201]

I dunno, I have no problems whatsoever going between a solo and a philharmonic. Could it be just a matter of set up? Even something as simple as moving one's chair can make transitions very easy.

 

[DaveyF]

Sorry, Davey, I am going to jump in and totally disagree.

This is all a matter of perception of the listener.

You are doing something that many dog owners do..assigning human characteristics to something that is not.

All the tubes, transistors, capacitors, cables, drivers, and enclosures in any system don't know the difference between Lang Lang or Elton John, or Andres Segovia or Jimi Hendrix.

On my system, I swear to God, I can put put Jimi Plays Berkeley, or Band of Gyspys, some Bill Evans Trio, or Joan Baez, or some White Stripes and it all sounds absolutely
believable to me.

My only limitation is volume, because of my room is on the small side, so it can get overloaded regardless of musical genre, but I rarely listen at volumes that get me into that territory.

When I hear somebody say a speaker, or a system doesn't "do" rock, or orchestral, or jazz...I cringe.

The ONLY way equipment might be suited to certain types of music is by PHYSICAL limitations, like olde ESLs, which quite simply would arc and peter out on large scale music.
The newer ESLs from what I heard from Sanders and King Sound, do not have these issues..not to mention Martin Logan's with powered subs.

I think this might be a case of a bit of over intellectualizing hfi!

Just my take.

Interesting perspective Andre. However, I guess I am one of those listener's who is trying to get his system to sound as close to what I recall of the 'real' sound as possible. I can tell you without any doubt that if I were to put a decent recording of almost any true hard rock piece on a system utilizing small speakers/drivers and most electrostatics, it isn't going to float my boat. If you think that any speaker can "do" rock,this is where we differ.
Do you hear the difference between what a Mesa Boogie Stack sounds like vs. a little Roland mini amp, in the same space. Both speakers connected to an amp, no?
I guess it depends on your definition or perception of what sounds real to you, and naturally YMMV

 

[Andre Marc]

Interesting perspective Andre. However, I guess I am one of those listener's who is trying to get his system to sound as close to what I recall of the 'real' sound as possible. I can tell you without any doubt that if I were to put a decent recording of almost any true hard rock piece on a system utilizing small speakers/drivers and most electrostatics, it isn't going to float my boat. If you think that any speaker can "do" rock,this is where we differ.
Do you hear the difference between what a Mesa Boogie Stack sounds like vs. a little Roland mini amp, in the same space. Both speakers connected to an amp, no?
I guess it depends on your definition or perception of what sounds real to you, and naturally YMMV

Neither one of us is right or wrong. That is the beauty of it.

I can tell you that I NEVER hesitate to put on a genre of music because I am afraid my system won't "do" it properly.

I need to come by one day and your system. .

I won't be bringing any Uriah Heep however....

 

[Andre Marc]

+1

 

[Steve williams]

I can tell you that I NEVER hesitate to put on a genre of music because I am afraid my system won't "do" it properly.

me neither

I do agree with Davey's postulate however that on occasion a big speaker will overload a less than adequate sized room

 

[Andre Marc]

me neither

I do agree with Davey's postulate however that on occasion a big speaker will overload a less than adequate sized room

I agree with that premise. But then it is a matter of physical limitations of the room...not the system.

No different than trying to cram a 4 piece rock band into a 8x10 room. But a lone acoustic guitar would sound great.

That then begs the question..why would you stuff a Wilson Maxx or similar into a small room?

 

[Steve williams]

But then it is a matter of physical limitations of the room...not the system.

precisely my point

 

[DaveyF]

I agree with that premise. But then it is a matter of physical limitations of the room...not the system.

No different than trying to cram a 4 piece rock band into a 8x10 room. But a lone acoustic guitar would sound great.

That then begs the question..why would you stuff a Wilson Maxx or similar into a small room?

Or a mini into a very large room.

Your point about stuffing a Wilson Maxx into a small room makes me wonder again what MF's system must sound like

 

[DaveyF]

I need to come by one day and your system. .

I won't be bringing any Uriah Heep however....

PM me and we can set that up. I would be delighted.

 

[Andre Marc]

Or a mini into a very large room.

Your point about stuffing a Wilson Maxx into a small room makes me wonder again what MF's system must sound like

Well, I remember vividly his original Maxx review. He said he was very skeptical about how it work. Wilson assured him it would be fine. He ended up buying the review samples...so....

Plus, I don't think his room is THAT small..but it is impossible to speculate on how the room sounds without actually hearing it.

 

[Andre Marc]

PM me and we can set that up. I would be delighted.

Cool! I am headed to my home state of New York this weekend, back Sept 1st...will hit you up.

 

[DaveyF]

I noticed that MF is reviewing the new Wilson XLF's. Look for a pair of slightly used Maxx 3's to be showing up on A'gon very soon. I guess if Maxx 3's can fit in his room, then XLF's can fit just as well.