An evening with XVX/Gryphon/DCS/Air force 1

[Elliot G.]

Elliot Peter did the set up himself and was tweaked slightly over 6 months using the Sumiko method to attain sound way better than any other XVX I’ve heard. Peter’s original set up actually had the soundstage even larger. These guys take Stirlings ( and John’s) approach a couple steps further. These speakers/ subs do not present intimate recordings as well

Peter did the set up which was then tweaked slightly using the Sumiko method over 6 months to absolutely nail the dial. Maybe I’m not expressing myself correctly These speakers are not as good on intimate recordings IMHO. It’s definitely not the set up. Maybe it’s the tweeter height that I’m personally sensitive to. I don’t know. With dual subs they are absolutely otherworldly for large scale recordings. No speaker is perfect for all purposes under all circumstances. You might actually know the owner. You could PM me if your interested. Even a multi decade veteran like you would appreciate hearing these just for the set up/dial if nothing else.

Perhaps that is the speakers nature. I have heard them multiple times after they have been "set up" and I have always found them oversized on intimate recordings. I listen to all kinds of music and I am very familiar with the set up used by Sumiko. The set up however isn't by itself the cure or cause of image size on solo intruments and vocals. The set up is mostly about finding the proper place in the room to get the low frequencies set properly in the room. The balance of the set up is driver alignment and that is probably what is the size issue. I am not syaing they are bad by any means just the size of a violin or a solo voice or any small scalle music is very important to me and I don't think they do a very good job as far a my experience has been. I personally believer its possible and have experience with many large speakers its sometimes just living with them and learning the "tricks." I was a Focal dealer back when and I learned and ectually taught people how to use the crank to get this specific issues cured on set up. I do think that XVX is probably a very complicated speaker to get "perfect"
Maybe its just the right choice for large scale orchestral who knows.....

 

[Kingrex]

. Scale and concussive force is what this is all about. If that's not your thing probably look elsewhere. If it is you've come to the right place.

We all spend too much time trying to say what's best under all circumstances for all people. If you don't agree you are uninformed. That simply is not possible given that we all have our own path to happiness. All the gear choices we make are just tools to achieve that happiness. That said if you are a full orchestra fan or love bombastic concussive music I don't know how you'd top this though Its not for everyone.

I have heard a few Wilson's. Owe boy, here it comes. Yes, they play big. They have power. Yet one owner told me he never plays classical because it does not sound good. And I did not enjoy it on his system either. It was excellent on a lot of other music he played. And it could be a simple singer instrument. But a Beethoven Quartet. Naaa.

Would you say this is the wrong system for people that like small ensamble music? What about Jazz then? This is a personal question. Money aside, would you buy the system. Or would you try to put horns or electrostatic or others in the room? Have you heard other systems that do more variety better?

 

[andromedaaudio]

If there is a reason the wilson sounds " good" here , its the electronics probably
The Apex combo will make a lot of speakers sound at their top level especially difficult to drive ones like the XVX

 

[Kingrex]

Maybe Ked will get the monos to his horns sound good

 

[andromedaaudio]

Maybe Ked will get the monos to his horns sound good

Yeah although it will sound good it will be seen as a defeat .
Not gonna happen .

 

[Kingrex]

Yeah although it will sound good it will be seen as a defeat .
Not gonna happen .

It was a joke, but, in PM with horn owners I hear a few really like class D amps. Sorry to derail.

 

[Audiohertz2]

If there is a reason the wilson sounds " good" here , its the electronics. probably
The Apex combo will make a lot of speakers sound at their top level especially difficult to drive ones like the XVX

If it sounds good here , it's a good speaker..,

 

[JiminGa]

This must be a very good system indeed lol

I only point it out as its totally over the top. I'm definitely not trying to "convince you". i was just sharing my evenings experience with you. I personally would have made some different choices. Its not about that. It was about a thrilling musical experience with a friend. Remember those? You know, what this is all about? Please if you have read anything I've posted anywhere please know i absolutely do not equate price with quality. Quite often the opposite. Enough with the childish snarky LOL stuff. You're a grown man. I am not advocating for any of this. I'm a Rockport guy. This isn't about anything other than a really cool evening with someone who did make these choices and put together something extraordinary which gives him pleasure. Whether or not you or anyone else who had the money would do this is not the point. It was amazing for what it was. Period.

 

[JiminGa]

Perhaps that is the speakers nature. I have heard them multiple times after they have been "set up" and I have always found them oversized on intimate recordings. I listen to all kinds of music and I am very familiar with the set up used by Sumiko. The set up however isn't by itself the cure or cause of image size on solo intruments and vocals. The set up is mostly about finding the proper place in the room to get the low frequencies set properly in the room. The balance of the set up is driver alignment and that is probably what is the size issue. I am not syaing they are bad by any means just the size of a violin or a solo voice or any small scalle music is very important to me and I don't think they do a very good job as far a my experience has been. I personally believer its possible and have experience with many large speakers its sometimes just living with them and learning the "tricks." I was a Focal dealer back when and I learned and ectually taught people how to use the crank to get this specific issues cured on set up. I do think that XVX is probably a very complicated speaker to get "perfect"
Maybe its just the right choice for large scale orchestral who knows.....

I agree.

 

[JiminGa]

I have heard a few Wilson's. Owe boy, here it comes. Yes, they play big. They have power. Yet one owner told me he never plays classical because it does not sound good. And I did not enjoy it on his system either. It was excellent on a lot of other music he played. And it could be a simple singer instrument. But a Beethoven Quartet. Naaa.

Would you say this is the wrong system for people that like small ensamble music? What about Jazz then? This is a personal question. Money aside, would you buy the system. Or would you try to put horns or electrostatic or others in the room? Have you heard other systems that do more variety better?

No. I would not necessarily recommend XVX for jazz or small ensembles but you might fell differently after listening. I really don't want to get into comparisons because they always lead to ridiculous infighting. Listen for yourself and not me or anyone else on this forum. Unless of course your wife is on this forum in which case you better listen.

 

[Kingrex]

No. I would not necessarily recommend XVX for jazz or small ensembles but you might fell differently after listening. I really don't want to get into comparisons because they always lead to ridiculous infighting. Listen for yourself and not me or anyone else on this forum. Unless of course your wife is on this forum in which case you better listen.

Haaa. Very diplomatic. I have heard them with Gryphon monos. Best I ever heard them. I wouldn't buy them. Thats not a dis on them. I like the direction I have gone. My direction needs a lot of work. I can do small scale. Can't do big as well and definitely don't have the bass. But Todd got me looking at Pure Low.

 

[sbnx]

I am very glad the Jim (the OP) had a great time with his friend enjoying his system. In the end, if the owner of the system is thrilled with its performance and listen every single evening with joy then that is all that really matters. I hope Jim's friend invites him over many more times for music and fun.

I would like to comment on soundstage and image size. The height of the soundstage is controllable. It can be positioned high or low by adjusting the speakers. It sounds like this one was positioned high. This is all a matter of perspective. If someone is sitting in the first 3 rows at a concert then they would be looking up at the performers. If that person is in the middle rows then likely straigt ahead. It just depends on how the owner of the speaker prefers it. The image size can also be controlled by speaker position. One can make 5 feet wide heads or normal size heads. This has to do with speaker coupling. As Elliot said, some people like these super big images. I prefer normal sized objects. Either way, as long as the sound is organized and everything is playing in time then I can go with it. Otherwise, not only are the images big but they are a hot mess bouncing around without musical intent.

The XVX can absolutely do small jazz and giant orchestra in the same system. And this coming from a person that has moved on from Wilson.

 

[LL21]

Great reading. As someone who owned Gryphon with Wilson (Antileon, then Colosseum, then Mephisto...all with Wilson X1/Grand SLAMMs and then briefly with XLFs before selling the Mephisto), I too really liked the combination. The X1/Grand SLAMMs particularly do not need power to sound amazing...but they do enjoy limitless reserves of power, and the Gryphon Mephisto gave it that unbridled sense of all-out power.

I have heard the XVXs only once before but it was an audition set up for me with our amplification and cabling, so we spent some real time. Impressive speaker and glad to hear it is making someone extremely happy having one at home.

 

[Elberoth]

The XVX can absolutely do small jazz and giant orchestra in the same system. And this coming from a person that has moved on from Wilson.

Absolutely agree. My friend who owns the XVXs (he actually has not one, two two pairs) listens 60% to classical and 40% jazz music. Even tho I have been Magico guy for a couple of years now, I love how they sound with the Ypsilon Hyperions.

 

[bonzo75]

The soundstage is also quite tall so music comes at you as if from a stage above your head. This is awesome if that is the venue you are reproducing. Listening to Hugh Masekela " Coal Train" was a revelation. Now, unfortunately, you can't undo the scale. When listening to Sarah Vaughn "The very thought of you" and Shirley Horn "Beautiful Love" its a little strange when they are 8 feet tall. I also did not particularly care for Neil Young Live at Massey Hall which is a small venue solo acoustic show.

…Whether you love these speakers or not will depend upon the kind of music you listen to, the room they are in and the setup.

Analog vs digital. This was fun. The most important determination of which I liked better had more to do with the quality of the digital file and the Lp pressing. When fed excellent source material both are amazing. On balance the Air force one felt more relaxed and natural. This was evident especially on Dean Martin "If you were the only girl" where we had excellent recordings both ways. If you have one or the other I wouldn't sweat the differences. Done well they are both great.
r hours. Most of our time was spent exchanging musical

That said if you are a full orchestra fan or love bombastic concussive music I don't know how you'd top this though

Hi, nice report. Just looking at the tracks you quoted, and then the reference to full orchestra…which tracks were used for classical?

Apologies for quoting only a part of your post, which I thought was relevant to my question. In case I missed out anything important in the context with speed reading, please restate.,

 

[JiminGa]

Hi, nice report. Just looking at the tracks you quoted, and then the reference to full orchestra…which tracks were used for classical?

Apologies for quoting only a part of your post, which I thought was relevant to my question. In case I missed out anything important in the context with speed reading, please restate.,

Hey Bonzo I'm not a classical music aficionado and so I apologize for not being able to answer your question. I wasn't really planning on posting about it here so I don't have video etc. I did screen shot some cuts I really enjoyed none of which were classical. My friend is a classical music fan and in fact bought the XVX/subsonic combo specifically for this application. He actually has Rockport Lyra/ D'Agostino relentless in another room for other music and an Avantgarde Trio set up disassembled in another.He thinks of speakers as tools for slightly different purposes. He loves all three for different reasons.

 

[JiminGa]

I am very glad the Jim (the OP) had a great time with his friend enjoying his system. In the end, if the owner of the system is thrilled with its performance and listen every single evening with joy then that is all that really matters. I hope Jim's friend invites him over many more times for music and fun.

I would like to comment on soundstage and image size. The height of the soundstage is controllable. It can be positioned high or low by adjusting the speakers. It sounds like this one was positioned high. This is all a matter of perspective. If someone is sitting in the first 3 rows at a concert then they would be looking up at the performers. If that person is in the middle rows then likely straigt ahead. It just depends on how the owner of the speaker prefers it. The image size can also be controlled by speaker position. One can make 5 feet wide heads or normal size heads. This has to do with speaker coupling. As Elliot said, some people like these super big images. I prefer normal sized objects. Either way, as long as the sound is organized and everything is playing in time then I can go with it. Otherwise, not only are the images big but they are a hot mess bouncing around without musical intent.

The XVX can absolutely do small jazz and giant orchestra in the same system. And this coming from a person that has moved on from Wilson.

Yes to an extent. There are inherent characteristics of XVX that you can't change.

 

[mtemur]

Thank you for the report. A couple of things popped in my mind. Sorry in advance being very direct.

We went back and forth with and without subs on multiple tracks

You certainly haven’t heard the setup without the subs, even if you think you have. I’m confident you didn’t physically remove the subs from the room during your test. Simply turning them off doesn’t ensure they’re out of the equation. As long as they’re in the room, they remain active in influencing the sound, particularly the bass, and can interfere with the overall performance. No wonder you prefer it with the subs.

His set up includes: Wison XVX and dual Subsonic subwoofers. Gryphon Apex monos on the XVX and Gryphon Mephisto monos on the subs. Gryphon Commander preamp. DAgostino phono stage. Full DCS Vivaldi Apex stack. Tech Das Airfare One with Graham Phantom Elite 3 and Lyra Etna. Transparent Magnum Opus cables throughout. 3 Transparent power conditioners. Gryphon power zone. 5 top of the line HRS racks. The room uses RPG Bad panels, Modex plate and Vicoustic DC3 diffusers. I calculated about 2.1 million in equipment alone!

The entire list is a no-go in this hobby, except for the AF1 turntable and possibly the Lyra Etna cartridge. Yes, I’ve heard them all, including the Apex amp, Commander preamp, and Mephisto monoblocks. Between 2005 and 2010, pairing Wilson speakers with Gryphon amplification was highly favored among the audiophile community I was familiar with. However, people eventually realized that the truck sized bass and three-meter-tall vocalists didn’t sound right. Moreover, the setup lacked real dynamics and lifelike character, prompting many to move on. It’s surprising to see the same situation repeating itself now, but at an even higher price point.

I recommend the owner consider buying a pair of Rogers or Falcon LS3/5 (or even Harbeth P3ESR) speakers. Pair them with a Leben 300X (or another matching amp) and experience that setup instead of the Wilson/Gryphon combination. It would serve as excellent training for the ears—at least, that’s what it did for me.

One last note: I never fell for the Wilson/Gryphon combo back in the day. I can hear some people saying this setup is different or their Wilson/Gryphon combo sounds lifelike, dynamic but the good thing about Wilson and Gryphon is that they never surprise you.

 

[JiminGa]

Thank you for the report. A couple of things popped in my mind. Sorry in advance being very direct.


You certainly haven’t heard the setup without the subs, even if you think you have. I’m confident you didn’t physically remove the subs from the room during your test. Simply turning them off doesn’t ensure they’re out of the equation. As long as they’re in the room, they remain active in influencing the sound, particularly the bass, and can interfere with the overall performance. No wonder you prefer it with the subs.



The entire list is a no-go in this hobby, except for the AF1 turntable and possibly the Lyra Etna cartridge. Yes, I’ve heard them all, including the Apex amp, Commander preamp, and Mephisto monoblocks. Between 2005 and 2010, pairing Wilson speakers with Gryphon amplification was highly favored among the audiophile community I was familiar with. However, people eventually realized that the truck sized bass and three-meter-tall vocalists didn’t sound right. Moreover, the setup lacked real dynamics and lifelike character, prompting many to move on. It’s surprising to see the same situation repeating itself now, but at an even higher price point.

I recommend the owner consider buying a pair of Rogers or Falcon LS3/5 (or even Harbeth P3ESR) speakers. Pair them with a Leben 300X (or another matching amp) and experience that setup instead of the Wilson/Gryphon combination. It would serve as excellent training for the ears—at least, that’s what it did for me.

One last note: I never fell for the Wilson/Gryphon combo back in the day. I can hear some people saying this setup is different or their Wilson/Gryphon combo sounds lifelike, dynamic but the good thing about Wilson and Gryphon is that they never surprise you.

Of course speakers are a matter of personal taste. I am not a Wilson fan boy. I have been accused of being a Wilson Hater on this very site because I realize their limitations. The XVX does do certain things very well however and its a great tool for them if that's what you're into. You can speak only for yourself. Had you said "is a no go FOR ME" then I would understand and respect that position. You have to understand that other people are after something entirely different than you (or I) am and that's ok. This achieves joy for him. Its not transferable to you or me. Its actually 2 different goals.This gentleman has 3 very different systems in his house each for different purposes because he recognizes this. He also has a Rockport Lyra system and an Avantgarde Trio system. The Wilson is for huge scale and concussive impact. Much of that comes from the dual subsonic's As to Apex can you understand why an impedance curve falling to 1.8 ohms in two different areas might benefit from them while a high efficiency speaker with a benign curve may not? The ideal amp speaker interface always changes every time you change the speaker. There are no universal bests for amps only given a specific load and sensitivity. That's not an opinion that is a physical fact. I absolutely understand your point about critical listening "ear training" and if done that it might lead to other choices for some but I'm not into trying to teach people what they should enjoy.I try to meet them where they are, experience their joy and learn from them what I can. My opinions/beliefs will always be unique to me. There was a visceral thrill to this massive experience that lots of people will like. Should I tell them they are wrong? If he wants more refinement he can go down the hall and listen to his Lyra (which he frequently does).

 

[Audiohertz2]

I recommend the owner consider buying a pair of Rogers or Falcon LS3/5 (or even Harbeth P3ESR) speakers. Pair them with a Leben 300X (or another matching amp) and experience that setup instead of the Wilson/Gryphon combination. It would serve as excellent training for the ears—at least, that’s what it did for me.

Kinda absurd, Really .....!