An evening with XVX/Gryphon/DCS/Air force 1

[Ron Resnick]

What a beautiful set up, Jim! Congratulations!

You are using Mephistos on the Subsonics?

The Transparent network boxes get their own HRS platforms?

 

[JiminGa]

Not my set up. My friends. Yes Mephisto monos on the subs. Each Magnum Opus gets its own HRS platform

 

[sbo6]

Thank you Ron. When I joined the WBF I clashed with folks because I did not know who they were. Many discussions like this one are between professionals who look at gear analytically. They have never owned an XVX and tweaked it and listened to it for many hundreds of hours with every kind of CD and download imaginable. Also live performances like the Highwaymen Live and have never heard Willie Nelson singing "Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain". I have many DVD's that are simply thrilling beyond belief on an XVX. I'm a well informed layperson who loves the high end. The XVX has a midrange that to me is simply beyond compare. It's perfect in height, size of vocals, clarity, resolution, delicacy, and refinement. It is beauty personified. I wouldn't know about a Lyra or Trio and could care even less. I will say this, I don't think you can judge the quality of a speaker like the XVX until you have taken a chance on it, bought it, and worked with it to get the absolute best out of it. This can take months to years. Finally, I drive it using a tube/tube/tube (MCD12000/C-12000/MCD3500) gear. IMO the MC3500 is the finest tube power amplifier on earth. The way is handles my XVX is incredible. So after 5 years of very hard work I have achieved a perfect sound to my ears. I knew the 3500 was something special when I first heard it but I didn't know how special. The initial tubes were bad and I had it on the 4-ohm tap. It blew tubes right and left. However, McIntosh remanufactured the El509's. I have almost 1,000 hours on them running off the 2-ohm tap now and have quit worrying about blowing a tube. At 350 + watts the amps don't even get warm. The remanufactured tubes sound much better too. I have to say there's a light year between listening to gear for 12-24 hours at a dealer and listening to it in your room for hundreds to thousands of hours. The final judgement is: "Do you look forward to listening to your speaker day after day, month after month, year after year?" Or do you find yourself wanting something different because there's that little burr under your saddle that only becomes apparent after many days of tweaking and listening that you can't get rid of. I want it all and I know what "all" is and I finally after 60 plus years in the high end have it.

I have 100 of the new green EL509's in a closet.

I'm glad you are very happy, however much if not all of what you state applies to all speakers and systems. This is why it's tough to judge any component or speaker at a show.

Also, McIntosh makes some good gear, but for the caliber of speaker you have, you might want to consider the plethora of high - end tubes amps that rank above Macs. You just may be praising their attributes and synergy with your system and speakers more than you know. Then, of course, there are many SS amps that sound tube - like with better bass, more power and higher resolution. One thing that's clear in this hobby in my many years is - there's always something better, the challenge is finding it and budget. ;-) Enjoy and Happy Holidays!

 

[Charles S]

I achieve excellent results with my XVX in this location. The last pic is my dealer's showroom. As you can see there is tremendous variation in the location of the XVX. However, I strongly suspect that JiminGa is correct concerning his statements regarding the best, if possible XVX location. Ideally, IMO, the XVX is designed for a SS amp exactly like the Gryphon and all that marvelous ancillary Gear. However, it's a testimony to the versatility of the speaker that it can sound really good in MF's room, my room, or my dealer's room. It's a very musical loudspeaker that wants to please its owner. That's the kind of speaker I want. However, I must say that I haven't heard the XVX at my dealers and I would wonder if a better location, moving them out in the room considerably wouldn't be better. As I have said, I absolutely love my sound. It's really amazing what my 3500's can do but they are no match for the Gryphons. However, my Thor and MC2.1KW located on an X-material plinth/ horizontal lie is something to behold. Note the 2K watts in the second to last pic. My bass is truly incredible both in quality and quantity. A Thor has 6 dB higher sensitivity and significantly more output than a Subsonic because of its 15" woofers. It was never designed for stereo but meant to replace the XS. I have it located exactly as Dave Wilson intended it to be, and my bass blend is perfect. My bass is bone crushing.

My estimate is that I have about 900K in my system and at least 150K in power. I'm obsessed with proper power. As a consequence I use nothing but Wel Signature and Dragon balanced IC's and speaker cables that cost a small fortune. And Dragon power cords and Niagara 5000 and 7000 conditioners with 4 dedicated 20 amp lines. Also a Transguard Tg60 between me and the light pole that has a superb filter. if your power is not right, forget it. I love the AQ solid silver. It improves my clarity and resolution an order of magnitude. I basically agree with JiminGA but the XVX can be made to sound superb in rooms of many different sizes and configurations, just not as good as the installation shown here. I wouldn't trade what I have for any other gear in my room but my room is the limiting factor. What you see here is the absolute ultimate. It's amazing that both Vitus and Gryphon are Danish. I can't see much difference in their gear both of which are Class A and of incredible build quality. They are the best, nothing else comes close, IMO. But of the two, are their distinguishable qualities? Does anyone know?

 

[Charles S]

These pics provide a good assessment of the distance from the rear wall and corner. As you can see, I'm in the zone of neutrality and in the optimum location for my room. Robert Harley's XVX is significantly further out than mine but significantly less than the above installation. I'm not shoved up against the rear wall or corner at all. I don't suffer from size exaggeration. My imaging is lifelike in size and is wall to wall. I have perfect soundstage height good depth. And of course there is zero slap echo. My room is on the over damped side, which is how I like it. It's wall within wall construction and 2 x 6's, built like a tank by my father-in-law. It's 15.5 feet wide and a full 40 feet long. The super tweeter is set at minus 4 dB and makes an audible and pleasing difference in my treble.

 

[JiminGa]

I achieve excellent results with my XVX in this location. The last pic is my dealer's showroom. As you can see there is tremendous variation in the location of the XVX. However, I strongly suspect that JiminGa is correct concerning his statements regarding the best, if possible XVX location. Ideally, IMO, the XVX is designed for a SS amp exactly like the Gryphon and all that marvelous ancillary Gear. However, it's a testimony to the versatility of the speaker that it can sound really good in MF's room, my room, or my dealer's room. It's a very musical loudspeaker that wants to please its owner. That's the kind of speaker I want. However, I must say that I haven't heard the XVX at my dealers and I would wonder if a better location, moving them out in the room considerably wouldn't be better. As I have said, I absolutely love my sound. It's really amazing what my 3500's can do but they are no match for the Gryphons. However, my Thor and MC2.1KW located on an X-material plinth/ horizontal lie is something to behold. Note the 2K watts in the second to last pic. My bass is truly incredible both in quality and quantity. A Thor has 6 dB higher sensitivity and significantly more output than a Subsonic because of its 15" woofers. It was never designed for stereo but meant to replace the XS. I have it located exactly as Dave Wilson intended it to be, and my bass blend is perfect. My bass is bone crushing.

My estimate is that I have about 900K in my system and at least 150K in power. I'm obsessed with proper power. As a consequence I use nothing but Wel Signature and Dragon balanced IC's and speaker cables that cost a small fortune. And Dragon power cords and Niagara 5000 and 7000 conditioners with 4 dedicated 20 amp lines. Also a Transguard Tg60 between me and the light pole that has a superb filter. if your power is not right, forget it. I love the AQ solid silver. It improves my clarity and resolution an order of magnitude. I basically agree with JiminGA but the XVX can be made to sound superb in rooms of many different sizes and configurations, just not as good as the installation shown here. I wouldn't trade what I have for any other gear in my room but my room is the limiting factor. What you see here is the absolute ultimate. It's amazing that both Vitus and Gryphon are Danish. I can't see much difference in their gear both of which are Class A and of incredible build quality. They are the best, nothing else comes close, IMO. But of the two, are their distinguishable qualities? Does anyone know?. I'm sure your set up sounds good. You would need to experience a large room with plenty of space off the front wall and above the speakers to truly understand what these are capable of. Neither you or your dealer really know what is possible with these given the respective set ups and electronics. It won't change the basic sound of the the XVX but the scale and the realism will grow exponentially. As to subs you certainly can use one Thor as you do. Magico has done similar. However, if you are starting with a blank slate get 2 subsonics in stereo and spend a couple of months getting them right millimeter by millimeter. I'm not criticizing anything you've done. My room is not optimized either. I'm stuck with what Ive got unless I move. My friend actually built this room to optimize the XVX specifically. It took 2 years. I don't know about your wife but that's a no go with mine. You also don't have the width for 2 subsonics so your set up makes sense. My post was really about what is possible with a blank slate and what an enormous difference this makes for XVX or any other speaker really.

 

[JiminGa]

Im certain your set up sounds good. My post is about what happens when you start with a blank slate and there are no restrictions. My friend had the room built specifically for XVXs. It took 2 years. Ive heard XVX and been underwhelmed. This was on a different level. You (and your dealer) would have to experience it to truly understand what's possible. Even after 50 + years at this I was unprepared. A single Thor works as you are using it. Don't think you have the room to optimize 2 subsonics but trust me they are awesome. 99% of us are stuck trying to optimize what we have so I am absolutely not critical of you. The thing about XVX is that (for me) its best attributes are size and scale which are more affected by room size than say tone or transparency. Just my thoughts. No offense.

 

[Charles S]

Im certain your set up sounds good. My post is about what happens when you start with a blank slate and there are no restrictions. My friend had the room built specifically for XVXs. It took 2 years. Ive heard XVX and been underwhelmed. This was on a different level. You (and your dealer) would have to experience it to truly understand what's possible. Even after 50 + years at this I was unprepared. A single Thor works as you are using it. Don't think you have the room to optimize 2 subsonics but trust me they are awesome. 99% of us are stuck trying to optimize what we have so I am absolutely not critical of you. The thing about XVX is that (for me) its best attributes are size and scale which are more affected by room size than say tone or transparency. Just my thoughts. No offense.

JiminGA, I think we are in complete agreement. I'm in the other 99%. Only folks like Robert Harley and your friend can begin with a blank slate. And of course my ancillary gear doesn't approach his either. I think it is great fun to see the absolute ultimate and to hear someone like you describe it. But it is also great in satisfaction to see just what can be accomplished beginning with a good room and going from there. A live performance like the Highwaymen DVD is simply awesome on my system. Hearing Chris Kristofferson sing Me and Bobby McGee or Johnny Cash sing Folsom Prison Blues at live performance levels is amazing, and it doesn't even sound loud. I never tire of hearing those guitar cords on Folsom Prison Blues through the XVX. You just want to turn them up and up...until the 3500 hits 350 watts.

I have an audiophile buddy, works for Emotiva, coming over Saturday for a listening session. He has older Revels with aluminium tweeters that he really likes and Emotiva subs. He uses digital equalization. He's about 45 now and has excellent ears. He loves the sound of my system and is constantly trying to make his sound like mine. Finally, after years of tweaking, he is inviting me over to his home in Brentwood TN to hear his system. I never forced the issue (of never being reciprocated) because "ain't no way" his is going to ever sound like mine no matter the equalization. Actually, you, Robert Harley and I agree on almost everything. I eschew any kind of digital signal manipulation. I believe in passive room treatments, period. I'm obsessed with signal purity, power, and extremely high quality connections, the best that I can possibly afford between gear. For example I use one, 1-meter solid silver, AQ Dragon balanced IC between my MCD12000 and C-12000. It costs about 12K, almost as much as the gear it connects. Most folks would think I'm crazy but I know better. Consequently, I have zero noise or hum at volume control 100% all inputs ear next to XVX or Thor as verified by my friend. I think only tubes like the MC3500 can only approach a true Class A solid state sound like your friends, but my sound never gets harsh at really high sound levels. Class A to my ears imparts an intensity to the sonics that I describes as a very pleasing coloration without imparting any harshness or drawbacks. It's the best. Tubes impart to my ears a very pleasing subtle coloration without impairing resolution. It's amazing at how competently my 3500's handle my XVX. I think you would be very pleased.

My friend has already cautioned me that his sound stage is low compared to mine and that his is a 15 row presentation as opposed to my front row. I wouldn't criticize his system for the world. I think you can always say positive things and I hope to be pleasantly surprised. We are going to eat at Jeff Ruby's afterward. That's what the high end is all about.

 

[Charles S]

A few pics of my latest installation and my much younger buddy. Over the years he has be a great help to me. He's my security pillow and blanket on my big installations. The Firebirds were for my new MC2.1KW subwoofer amp. They are about 8K and 6K respectively. I couldn't afford Dragons.

 

[sbo6]

What you see here is the absolute ultimate. It's amazing that both Vitus and Gryphon are Danish. I can't see much difference in their gear both of which are Class A and of incredible build quality. They are the best, nothing else comes close, IMO. But of the two, are their distinguishable qualities? Does anyone know?

Help me understand, you state Vitus and Gryphon are the best and nothing else comes close IYO, but then you clearly haven't heard them as you ask if anyone can distinguish between them?

Also, there is no absolute ultimate, your ultimate I might dislike and vice versa.

I've heard Vitus and Gryphon, along with CH Precision, Audionet, Soulution, Boulder, Dartzheel, Lamm and others, I wouldn't put Vitus and Gryphon in the same league as most of the aforementioned brands. McIntash is a level (or 2) further down IMO and IME. YMMV.

 

[LL21]

Sorry it took so long to post some pictures. The vast majority of treatments are hidden. A few more thoughts: you need at least 8 feet behind the speakers and a minimum 11 foot ceiling to get your full monies worth. I know Fremer believes his set up is solid with the speakers shoehorned into the corner but I’d love to see his reaction to this. The dual subsonics are necessary IMHO to maximize the strength of these speakers. Scale + impact. If you listen primarily to small or midsize format music the subs are a mixed bag. These are tools for a very specific objective which is not for everyone. They are however very very good at what they do best.

Stunning. Talk about visceral impact. Having owned Wilson + Gryphon Class A for nearly 12 consecutive years, I do have a sense of this system and possibly it’s voice…but imagine far more advanced in every category’s.

 

[Charles S]

Help me understand, you state Vitus and Gryphon are the best and nothing else comes close IYO, but then you clearly haven't heard them as you ask if anyone can distinguish between them?

Also, there is no absolute ultimate, your ultimate I might dislike and vice versa.

I've heard Vitus and Gryphon, along with CH Precision, Audionet, Soulution, Boulder, Dartzheel, Lamm and others, I wouldn't put Vitus and Gryphon in the same league as most of the aforementioned brands. McIntash is a level (or 2) further down IMO and IME. YMMV.

I have always believed Class A to be the best amplification. I base my observation on the build quality which IMO is incredible for both these manufacturers because of course I haven't heard them. These other amps are not Class A. I think Boulder is too analytical. I would not have a Boulder and they have not to my knowledge updated their big flagship amp in about 15 years. Dartzheel took a step backwards with their new amp which won't remotely come close to meeting its specs. I wouldn't have it in my system either. I don't know anything about Audionet or Lamm but I don't care for switching power supplies with the Solution. I don't think it is too critical to have to listen to every amp to express an opinion on the amps you believe to be the absolute best. Vitus and Gryphon are true Class A, built like tanks. IMO they are the gold standard, but this is just my layperson opinion, probably not worth all that much. Of all the amps you mention the one I like the best would be the CH-Precision M10. Why? it is Robert Harley's reference amp although he will soon move it to drive his Subsonics, 1100 watts mono to each sub.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I have always believed Class A to be the best amplification.

You mean as a matter of theory? Why?

Amplifier topology is not necessarily probative of actual amplifier sound.

I base my observation on the build quality which IMO is incredible for both these manufacturers because of course I haven't heard them.

You base your sonic preference on visual build quality?

If you haven't heard them how can you presume to know anything about how they sound?

I don't think it is too critical to have to listen to every amp to express an opinion on the amps you believe to be the absolute best.

This made my head nearly explode.

Of all the amps you mention the one I like the best would be the CH-Precision M10. Why? it is Robert Harley's reference amp

You like it best sonically because Robert Harley likes it, even though you have not heard it yourself?

 

[Charles S]

Ron, I really appreciate you reading my opinions carefully. I'm just a layperson among professionals who has put together a really nice 2-channel system. I have my opinions that I probably won't change, whether they be valid is another matter. One of them is that I have a right to have an opinion on what I consider to be the best of power amps. I believe that Class A is the best of all amplifications and I consequently believe that Vitus and Gryphon are among the best if not the best of them. I really like the CH-Precision M-10. Having expressed my opinion on amplification, I would not have a Gryphon or Vitus in my system. Too hot, too much heat and electricity, therefore too impractical. I was simply expressing what I thought was the theoretical very best. Robert Harley says the best amp he's ever had in his system was the ARC600 but the heat became unbearable. I think from now on I should say, "Now this is just my layperson opinion," when I make declarative statements. You guys are the professionals. I really enjoyed the featured system in this thread. It is amazing. I'm learning from you guys.

 

[Charles S]

Also I don't mind or object to criticism. I actually appreciate it very much. It's how you learn. I looked up Audionet power amps and read all about them. They are the kind of amp I would consider having in my system. Why? they appear extremely well made, sensibly priced, and double in watts as the impedance goes to 2-ohms. Also, they don't weigh a ton. Of course I would want to hear one before buying but I can eliminate a lot of amps without having to hear them, if I were in the market for amps, which I am not. I want an amp that will meet its specs and I strongly suspect that Audionet amps will meet theirs.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you for explaining. I did not mean to be critical.

You absolutely have the right to select components for any reason or for no reason. You have the right to like Vitus because "V" is your favorite letter in the alphabet!

In this hobby I'm just not accustomed to people selecting and rejecting components based primarily or even solely on theory, on build quality and on other people's opinions. So I apologize that my questions embodied criticism.

I have seen and heard Gryphon and Vitus and CH numerous times. They're all big and heavy; they scare the birds; they get hot; and they use up a lot of gasoline. But in audiophile terms I think they sound noticeably different.

 

[TonyW]

A few pics of my latest installation and my much younger buddy. Over the years he has be a great help to me. He's my security pillow and blanket on my big installations. The Firebirds were for my new MC2.1KW subwoofer amp. They are about 8K and 6K respectively. I couldn't afford Dragons.

Cool setup. I think you could benefit from diffusion panels on the ceiling. Not expensive and easy to experiment with.

 

[sbo6]

I have always believed Class A to be the best amplification. I base my observation on the build quality which IMO is incredible for both these manufacturers because of course I haven't heard them. These other amps are not Class A. I think Boulder is too analytical. I would not have a Boulder and they have not to my knowledge updated their big flagship amp in about 15 years. Dartzheel took a step backwards with their new amp which won't remotely come close to meeting its specs. I wouldn't have it in my system either. I don't know anything about Audionet or Lamm but I don't care for switching power supplies with the Solution. I don't think it is too critical to have to listen to every amp to express an opinion on the amps you believe to be the absolute best. Vitus and Gryphon are true Class A, built like tanks. IMO they are the gold standard, but this is just my layperson opinion, probably not worth all that much. Of all the amps you mention the one I like the best would be the CH-Precision M10. Why? it is Robert Harley's reference amp although he will soon move it to drive his Subsonics, 1100 watts mono to each sub.

Thanks for your explanation, Charles. I see you state you're willing to learn - that's great, we all are, no one knows everything and I believe that's a big reason why we're all here. It's hard to go and hear / see the many components so having consolidated input on this forum is a great tool and can be fun too.

Specific to amplifiers, I would recommend being open to all topologies as they've all come a long way from the stereotypes like, Class A is best, Class D sounds thin and non - musical, etc. For example, you mentioned CH Precision M10 which is Class A/B. It's one of the finest amps I've heard with a tonality closer to neutral and with very natural timbre (in a good way) versus Gryphon, which are a dark, bottoms - up amp yet as you said, are Class A.

Last comment - I see you value RH's opinion, he certainly has much experience but if I may - it's one person's opinion, most importantly not yours. If there's one thing I've learned it's - take everyone's opinion with a grain or three of salt. Everyone means well, but everyone has different taste, and different ears. Happy Listening!


Steve

 

[Charles S]

Thank you for explaining. I did not mean to be critical.

You absolutely have the right to select components for any reason or for no reason. You have the right to like Vitus because "V" is your favorite letter in the alphabet!

In this hobby I'm just not accustomed to people selecting and rejecting components based primarily or even solely on theory, on build quality and on other people's opinions. So I apologize that my questions embodied criticism.

I have seen and heard Gryphon and Vitus and CH numerous times. They're all big and heavy; they scare the birds; they get hot; and they use up a lot of gasoline. But in audiophile terms I think they sound noticeably different.

Thanks a lot Ron. It's good to feel accepted and I feel that way. I think I bring a valuable perspective to WBF because you guys are pros. That's a fact. I'm not. That's a fact. I'm 76 and may be the healthiest 76 y/o white male in the USA. I'm a retired ER doctor. I know a tremendous amount about the human body and how to stay alive and healthy. I roller skated for 2.5 hours on the floor last night and I am probably the finest senior skater in the southeast, if not the USA. So I have owned many speakers and ancillary gear but I obviously can't travel to hear all the wonderful gear you guys have. I fantasize about the gear that you have heard all the time. When I read Steve's post I immediately went to Audionet and read about his amps. German made, reasonably priced, superb specs, don't weigh a ton, great technology, and obviously here's a guy on WBF who has them in his system who has a ton of knowledge about amps. Also I like their looks. This would make me want to consider Audionet. As much as I like and respect Gryphon and Vitus from theory, I would never have either in my system. I travel a lot, actually. It's just on my treadmill where I average about 44 miles a week and full gym 4 days a week. My vision and hearing are amazing for my age. I have the bones and joints of a 25 year old, and my ROS is negative. So when I make declarative statements I'm coming from a perspective that I read the mags, read a lot of reviews and websites, pay close attention to specs and reviews that contain measurements. I really like WBF because I listen to all the opinions carefully. But I'm just a a layperson who has been in the high end, loves the high end since age 10, and loves music.

All the Best,

Charles

 

[JiminGa]

You mean as a matter of theory? Why?

Amplifier topology is not necessarily probative of actual amplifier sound.


You base your sonic preference on visual build quality?

If you haven't heard them how can you presume to know anything about how they sound?


This made my head nearly explode.


You like it best sonically because Robert Harley likes it, even though you have not heard it yourself?

Only my opinions so please no one take offense. Ron, if two amps are made equally well then the class A will have no crossover distortion. They also typically have very beefy power supplies and double down into 1 ohm loads. Many speakers have at least one unfriendly area along their impedance curve which will cause problems for most AB amps. I have heard the CH Precision in a purpose built room using my same speakers (Rockport Orions). To say my relatively modest Gryphon Evo crushes them (IMHO only) is an understatement. This is despite my 8 foot ceiling vs. a larger room with a 12 foot ceiling and top of the line RPG Modfractals. Thin and grey vs. flesh and bone. I know there are other differences between the two systems but its not close. I'm not sure many people have had the chance to actually listen to their speakers being driven by both CH Precision and Gryphon to form an opinion. Not much dealer overlap. Shows don't count. feel free to disagree. Carry on.