An evening with XVX/Gryphon/DCS/Air force 1

[Ron Resnick]

Thanks a lot Ron. It's good to feel accepted and I feel that way. I think I bring a valuable perspective to WBF because you guys are pros. That's a fact. I'm not. That's a fact. I'm 76 and may be the healthiest 76 y/o white male in the USA. I'm a retired ER doctor. I know a tremendous amount about the human body and how to stay alive and healthy. I roller skated for 2.5 hours on the floor last night and I am probably the finest senior skater in the southeast, if not the USA. So I have owned many speakers and ancillary gear but I obviously can't travel to hear all the wonderful gear you guys have. I fantasize about the gear that you have heard all the time. When I read Steve's post I immediately went to Audionet and read about his amps. German made, reasonably priced, superb specs, don't weigh a ton, great technology, and obviously here's a guy on WBF who has them in his system who has a ton of knowledge about amps. Also I like their looks. This would make me want to consider Audionet. As much as I like and respect Gryphon and Vitus from theory, I would never have either in my system. I travel a lot, actually. It's just on my treadmill where I average about 44 miles a week and full gym 4 days a week. My vision and hearing are amazing for my age. I have the bones and joints of a 25 year old, and my ROS is negative. So when I make declarative statements I'm coming from a perspective that I read the mags, read a lot of reviews and websites, pay close attention to specs and reviews that contain measurements. I really like WBF because I listen to all the opinions carefully. But I'm just a a layperson who has been in the high end, loves the high end since age 10, and loves music.

Congratulations on being so fit and healthy!

 

[Gregm]

Only my opinions so please no one take offense.

I am sure no-one does - I, for one, am actually interested in reading an opinion esp based on experience

Ron, if two amps are made equally well then the class A will have no crossover distortion.

Yes, the transistor ones. Another consideration, important for the resulting sound, is how feedback is applied.

I'm not sure many people have had the chance to actually listen to their speakers being driven by both CH Precision and Gryphon to form an opinion.

Interesting!

 

[JiminGa]

I am sure no-one does - I, for one, am actually interested in reading an opinion esp based on experience

Yes, the transistor ones. Another consideration, important for the resulting sound, is how feedback is applied.

Interesting!

Right. There would be no particular benefit to transistors in a high efficiency benign load speaker. The XVX has a punishing impedance curve.

 

[Charles S]

Thanks for your explanation, Charles. I see you state you're willing to learn - that's great, we all are, no one knows everything and I believe that's a big reason why we're all here. It's hard to go and hear / see the many components so having consolidated input on this forum is a great tool and can be fun too.

Specific to amplifiers, I would recommend being open to all topologies as they've all come a long way from the stereotypes like, Class A is best, Class D sounds thin and non - musical, etc. For example, you mentioned CH Precision M10 which is Class A/B. It's one of the finest amps I've heard with a tonality closer to neutral and with very natural timbre (in a good way) versus Gryphon, which are a dark, bottoms - up amp yet as you said, are Class A.

Last comment - I see you value RH's opinion, he certainly has much experience but if I may - it's one person's opinion, most importantly not yours. If there's one thing I've learned it's - take everyone's opinion with a grain or three of salt. Everyone means well, but everyone has different taste, and different ears. Happy Listening!


Steve

Thanks a lot Steve. If I could have any amp that I wanted, it would be an M10. So you see, even if I haven't heard hardly anything, the M10 sticks out at me as being the one that I would want, if I could have my dream amplification. Robert is a good friend and so of course I value his opinion highly. But he's just a very knowledgeable pro, just like you guys. I understand that now.

I want to say a word about McIntosh. I grew up with McIntosh. My father loved what is now the old vintage gear. I think that I have a deep understanding of McIntosh of what it represents and it most definitely is not in the same class as the gear discussed on WBF. But I have a budget. I believe, again rightly or wrongly, that power (light pole, fuse box, 20 amp lines, cords, conditioners, IC's, etc.) and speakers are more important than what's in-between, meaning sources, preamps, and amps, if I must choose. Power and speakers are where I have chosen to spend my dollars. Also isolation gear and passive room treatments.

I think that you would be pleased at just how good my 3500's and 2.1KW can be made to sound. I think you would be pleased at how good my MCD12000 and C-12000 can be made to sound, all working together in synergy, all for about 108K, the cost of about one M10. But this is with the very best power and speaker that I can afford. I know how to get the very best out of McIntosh but I'm under no illusions. But you spend your dollars where you think that they will do the most good. I have achieved to my ears a highly resolving beautiful sound. I'm totally satisfied with my system, which is quite unusual in the high end.

I waited for nearly 20 years for an updated MC2KW. The MC3500 is one of the very few tube amps that will actually produce 500 watts continuous at 2-ohms, according to McIntosh. It has an FTC power rating of 350 watts at 2, 4, and 8 ohms and I can attest to the fact that it will easily pump out 350 watts continuous, because I listen to live performances frequently. It has a great robust beautiful highly dynamic sound to my ears through my XVX. I love the tube sound that I have achieved through my XVX. To my ears it's simply beautiful. Highly resolving and the tube coloration is always noticeable and very pleasing to my ears. Classical music is especially wonderful. I'm all tube from source to speaker.

All the Best,

Charles

 

[Charles S]

Cool setup. I think you could benefit from diffusion panels on the ceiling. Not expensive and easy to experiment with.

Tony, thank you so much for the compliment and advice. If you notice I had the ceiling blown with the largest "popcorn" available at the time. My imaging is excellent and I have zero slap echo. I already have a tremendous amount of passive equalization with my room tunes and other passive diffusers. I got some spare room tunes, if you want them, just kidding.

Charles

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think that I have a deep understanding of McIntosh of what it represents and it most definitely is not in the same class as the gear discussed on WBF.

I waited for nearly 20 years for an updated MC2KW. The MC3500 is one of the very few tube amps that will actually produce 500 watts continuous at 2-ohms, according to McIntosh. It has an FTC power rating of 350 watts at 2, 4, and 8 ohms and I can attest to the fact that it will easily pump out 350 watts continuous, because I listen to live performances frequently. It has a great robust beautiful highly dynamic sound to my ears through my XVX. I love the tube sound that I have achieved through my XVX.

I do not look down my nose at McIntosh. I have no personal listening experience with the brand, so I have no opinion on it.

What I do know is that my friend and Keith's friend Danny Kaey, a reviewer for Positive Feedback and a German magazine, who had Wilson XVXes absolutely loved his big McIntosh amps on those loudspeakers.

 

[JiminGa]

Thanks a lot Steve. If I could have any amp that I wanted, it would be an M10. So you see, even if I haven't heard hardly anything, the M10 sticks out at me as being the one that I would want, if I could have my dream amplification. Robert is a good friend and so of course I value his opinion highly. But he's just a very knowledgeable pro, just like you guys. I understand that now.

I want to say a word about McIntosh. I grew up with McIntosh. My father loved what is now the old vintage gear. I think that I have a deep understanding of McIntosh of what it represents and it most definitely is not in the same class as the gear discussed on WBF. But I have a budget. I believe, again rightly or wrongly, that power (light pole, fuse box, 20 amp lines, cords, conditioners, IC's, etc.) and speakers are more important than what's in-between, meaning sources, preamps, and amps, if I must choose. Power and speakers are where I have chosen to spend my dollars. Also isolation gear and passive room treatments.

I think that you would be pleased at just how good my 3500's and 2.1KW can be made to sound. I think you would be pleased at how good my MCD12000 and C-12000 can be made to sound, all working together in synergy, all for about 108K, the cost of about one M10. But this is with the very best power and speaker that I can afford. I know how to get the very best out of McIntosh but I'm under no illusions. But you spend your dollars where you think that they will do the most good. I have achieved to my ears a highly resolving beautiful sound. I'm totally satisfied with my system, which is quite unusual in the high end.

I waited for nearly 20 years for an updated MC2KW. The MC3500 is one of the very few tube amps that will actually produce 500 watts continuous at 2-ohms, according to McIntosh. It has an FTC power rating of 350 watts at 2, 4, and 8 ohms and I can attest to the fact that it will easily pump out 350 watts continuous, because I listen to live performances frequently. It has a great robust beautiful highly dynamic sound to my ears through my XVX. I love the tube sound that I have achieved through my XVX. To my ears it's simply beautiful. Highly resolving and the tube coloration is always noticeable and very pleasing to my ears. Classical music is especially wonderful. I'm all tube from source to speaker.

All the Best,

Charles

With XVX given its impedance curve a single stereo Apex would likely give you periods of nearly 1000 watts continuous of pure class A power. It’s 210 watts (8 ohm) double down all the way to 1/2 ohm. If you heard them head to head and knowing your speakers and learning your tastes I would be floored if you preferred CH Precision to the Apex. Not saying you couldnt but I very much doubt it. I did the comparison with my little Evo on far less challenging Orions.

 

[Charles S]

With XVX given its impedance curve a single stereo Apex would likely give you periods of nearly 1000 watts continuous of pure class A power. It’s 210 watts (8 ohm) double down all the way to 1/2 ohm. If you heard them head to head and knowing your speakers and learning your tastes I would be floored if you preferred CH Precision to the Apex. Not saying you couldnt but I very much doubt it. I did the comparison with my little Evo on far less challenging Orions.

Steve, I have no doubt. I also like the darker bottom-up sound a lot. The XVX has superb bass, but it must be driven IMO with and amp like an Apex to fully get all of it. It's -3 dB at 15 Hz at 114 dB. But I believe that I would also like the M10's very much and they are just much more practical. I think that your friend's system is extremely informative in that he's just gone for the absolute best. His system is an excellent measuring rod for an all-out XVX system that of course includes Subsonics. That's what a lot of folks miss, the XVX is designed to be a WAMM equivalent that will fit into a variety of rooms, and I personally would prefer it to the WAMM because of the newer midrange. Just me. I haven't heard a WAMM and never will.

Charles

 

[Charles S]

I do not look down my nose at McIntosh. I have no personal listening experience with the brand, so I have no opinion on it.

What I do know is that my friend and Keith's friend Danny Kaey, a reviewer for Positive Feedback and a German magazine, who had Wilson XVXes absolutely loved his big McIntosh amps on those loudspeakers.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I personally would prefer it to the WAMM because of the newer midrange.

Me too.

 

[Charles S]

I'm a big Bob Dylan fan. I recently went to the recent movie, "A Complete Unknown" and really enjoyed it. Below is the "Rolling Thunder" download played through my 3500's. It sounds like Bob Dylan is singing, and his band is playing in my room. It really does. Not even a hint of harshness or dynamic compression. Bob Dylan can sing, and his voice sounds incredible. The 3500's will easily do 350 watts all day long and they barely get warm. The bass is also incredible, something you don't expect with a tube amp. So, no doubt, an M10 or Apex would do a significantly better job, but I love the sound that I have achieved. It's the finest 900K sound that I know how to achieve. I think that you are correct about McIntosh, but I also must understand that Mac is not in the league of Gryphon or CH-Precision or the other amps that Steve has named.

All the Best

Charles

 

[Ron Resnick]

I also must understand that Mac is not in the league of Gryphon or CH-Precision or the other amps that Steve has named.

You do you!

I truly don't think this way. If I did I would not be interested in smaller and lesser known electronics brands like Jadis, WestminsterLab, Trafomatic, Aries Cerat, etc.

I go almost entirely by what I believe I hear from the components.

 

[sbo6]

I'm a big Bob Dylan fan. I recently went to the recent movie, "A Complete Unknown" and really enjoyed it. Below is the "Rolling Thunder" download played through my 3500's. It sounds like Bob Dylan is singing, and his band is playing in my room. It really does. Not even a hint of harshness or dynamic compression. Bob Dylan can sing, and his voice sounds incredible. The 3500's will easily do 350 watts all day long and they barely get warm. The bass is also incredible, something you don't expect with a tube amp. So, no doubt, an M10 or Apex would do a significantly better job, but I love the sound that I have achieved. It's the finest 900K sound that I know how to achieve. I think that you are correct about McIntosh, but I also must understand that Mac is not in the league of Gryphon or CH-Precision or the other amps that Steve has named.

All the Best

Charles

Charles, apologies if I led you to believe that I don't think Mac amps are very good, I've heard many (I lived in New York for over 30 years, heard many over the years), they certainly are. My comments were more relative to your ultra - high end speakers. At the end of the day, you need to be happy and it's clear you are, that's what this hobby is all about. Enjoy!


Steve

 

[Charles S]

You do you!

I truly don't think this way. If I did I would not be interested in smaller and lesser known electronics brands like Jadis, WestminsterLab, Trafomatic, Aries Cerat, etc.

I go almost entirely by what I believe I hear from the components.

Ron, that's really good to know about you. I think that your philosophy is the correct philosophy. It's a philosophy without prejudice which is the ideal one for a reviewer.

 

[Charles S]

Charles, apologies if I led you to believe that I don't think Mac amps are very good, I've heard many (I lived in New York for over 30 years, heard many over the years), they certainly are. My comments were more relative to your ultra - high end speakers. At the end of the day, you need to be happy and it's clear you are, that's what this hobby is all about. Enjoy!


Steve

Steve, no apologies necessary. I think the comments you made about McIntosh amps are accurate and correct. One thing I want to correct. I looked at my Signature and added up the cost of my gear, it's 815K including room treatments etc. I think I said 900K.