What turntables do you use? Pictures would be nice as well :-)

[PeterA]

Certainly it’s not placebo, you’ve changed the slippage of platter by polishing. I mean the side, where the string rides. IMHO you should have left it as it is.

Juiced reported that he thinks the sound might have improved. He did not write that it got worse.

Very good observation. It might seem like a good idea to place the motor away from the platter, but as you’ve pointed out, wow and flutter actually get worse. The motor should be positioned as close to the platter as possible.

If you can’t hear the increase in wow and flutter and you don’t have a way of measuring the difference, but you hear an improvement by moving the motor away or on a different platform, perhaps the increased distance and removal of motor vibrations from getting to the turntable override any possible differences in wow and flutter.

I have done these experiments and done the listening comparisons. Belt, thread, different types of threads, different tensions, different lengths, can all be audible. Of course one does not have to experiment with this stuff, but it can make a difference. There’s nothing to lose because it’s all reversible.

 

[mtemur]

Juiced reported that he thinks the sound might have improved. He did not write that it got worse.



If you can’t hear the increase in wow and flutter and you don’t have a way of measuring the difference, but you hear an improvement by moving the motor away or on a different platform, perhaps the increased distance and removal of motor vibrations from getting to the turntable override the differences in wow and flutter.

I have done these experiments and done the listening comparisons. Belt, thread, different types of threads, different tensions, different lengths, can all be audible. Of course one does not have to experiment with this stuff, but it can make a difference.

Assuming your comment is about “polishing the platter”:

Yes, @Juiced didn’t say that polishing the platter worsens the sound — and more importantly, I didn’t say that either.

When it comes to the belt, thread, pulley, and platter, everything makes a difference — even the tension of the belt or thread. Some slippage on the platter and/or pulley is actually beneficial, but too much or too little can degrade the sound.

After polishing the platter, you might hear added clarity, which can be easily perceived as an improvement. However, it could also come across as a brighter sound — which isn’t necessarily a good thing. It takes extended listening sessions over a couple of days to truly determine whether it’s an improvement or not.

 

[Neil.Antin]

Not sure of official designation. VPI Avenger Statement? Super Avenger (?) Different plinth, outboard power supply and a few other changes. And one foot of analog ecstasy!

Quite a table for sure. Assuming you are going to do a formal review, I notice 'another' new VPI tonearm - the gimbal carbon tube with aluminum head shell, looking forward your thoughts on that also. A couple of years ago at CAF 2023, VPI was showing a one-piece tonearm-head shell machined from Delrin. It looked like a 3D, but up close you see the difference. It mostly flew under the radar, and no one reported about it. I spoke to Harry about it, and he said it took quite a few hours to machine. VPI loves to play around with prototype tonearms.

 

[PeterA]

Assuming your comment is about “polishing the platter”:

Yes, @Juiced didn’t say that polishing the platter worsens the sound — and more importantly, I didn’t say that either.

When it comes to the belt, thread, pulley, and platter, everything makes a difference — even the tension of the belt or thread. Some slippage on the platter and/or pulley is actually beneficial, but too much or too little can degrade the sound.

After polishing the platter, you might hear added clarity, which can be easily perceived as an improvement. However, it could also come across as a brighter sound — which isn’t necessarily a good thing. It takes extended listening sessions over a couple of days to truly determine whether it’s an improvement or not.

I agree that progress should be judged by listening to the results of the changes. Sometimes it takes a while to notice subtle differences, and sometimes they can be heard rather quickly. I also agree that sometimes changes result in trade-offs where some aspects of the presentation improve while others do not or get worse. Then choices have to be made or different solutions need to be examined.

 

[mtemur]

If you can’t hear the increase in wow and flutter and you don’t have a way of measuring the difference, but you hear an improvement by moving the motor away or on a different platform, perhaps the increased distance and removal of motor vibrations from getting to the turntable override any possible differences in wow and flutter.

Normally, turntables with separate motor assemblies have sufficient vibration isolation built into the motor chassis. But if your turntable’s motor still induces vibrations that interfere with playback, the right approach, in my opinion, is to isolate the vibrations — not to move the motor away. For that purpose extra platforms or footers can be used. IMHO moving the motor away from the platter introduces new problems while trying to solve one.

 

[PeterA]

Normally, turntables with separate motor assemblies have sufficient vibration isolation built into the motor chassis. But if your turntable’s motor still induces vibrations that interfere with playback, the right approach, in my opinion, is to isolate the vibrations — not to move the motor away. For that purpose extra platforms or footers can be used. IMHO moving the motor away from the platter introduces new problems while trying to solve one.

I understand what you’re saying. My next experiment is going to be separate stands but close together. Right now, they are separate and far apart.

I have found that the length of a thread as well as type and tension affects resonance from the motor pulley to the platter. I don’t know if that overrides the effect of a particular motor vibration getting to the turntable through a stand’s shelf. I suspect it is difficult to generalize and specific designs must be analyzed individually. Of course, some designs are more flexible than others and allow for more experimentation.

 

[DasguteOhr]

thanks,
not on a separate stand but tried the motor and the turntable as far a part on the stand edges with a longer thread.

didn't notice something different but the wow and flatter were a bit worse.

The gunmetal platters from Micro Seiki are all coated with a special lacquer to prevent ringing.
Of course, I understand that people wanted it to look good, but sometimes it's better to keep your hands off it.
the further away the motor is, the less wrap angle (low torque).
There are turntables designed for this purpose, where the motor is only responsible for maintaining the set speed, such as Platine Verdier, but not Micro Seiki. These benefit from high-torque motors, such as TW-Acoustic my tip.

 

[Juiced]

The gunmetal platters from Micro Seiki are all coated with a special lacquer to prevent ringing.
Of course, I understand that people wanted it to look good, but sometimes it's better to keep your hands off it.
the further away the motor is, the less wrap angle (low torque).
There are turntables designed for this purpose, where the motor is only responsible for maintaining the set speed, such as Platine Verdier, but not Micro Seiki. These benefit from high-torque motors, such as TW-Acoustic my tip.View attachment 148862

Hi,

Could you please validate this information?

Couldn't find any information regarding "special lacquer to prevent ringing."

In the RX-5000 manual it's stated:




btw,
the 1500 in the photo have a polished platter.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Hi,

Could you please validate this information?

Couldn't find any information regarding "special lacquer to prevent ringing."

In the RX-5000 manual it's stated:

View attachment 148864


btw,
the 1500 in the photo have a polished platter.

In the Japanese hi-fi forums, a few veterans were discussing why the larger RX 8000 doesn't have a gunmetal platter, but a stainless steel one. There was someone there who claimed to have worked at Micro Seiki. He said that this protective coating also has a dampening function. That's why they omitted it from the RX 8000, so that they wouldn't get complaints about sound degradation if someone polished it and destroyed the seal.

新ネットワークブリッジやレコードプレーヤー、8K放送。Technics品薄

オーディオ・ビジュアル関連の展示会「OTOTEN 2017」が、東京国際フォーラムで5月13日に開幕、14日までの2日間開催される。入場は無料、主催は日本オーディオ協会。ホームオーディオ、ホームシアター、カーオーディオなどの注目製品が体験可能となっており、ここではホームオーディオ関連の6階フロアと、ヘッドフォンやポータブルオーディオ関連の4階フロアの模様をレポートする。なお、6階で展開しているDIATONEについては別記事で紹介している。

av.watch.impress.co.jp

Whether that's true can only be determined by comparing a polishedt one with one in original condition. I know that a friend reported something similar that sounds brighter like you said.
P.S
the successor techdas does the same the expensive models also have stainless steel platter

 

[PeterA]

In the Japanese hi-fi forums, a few veterans were discussing why the larger RX 8000 doesn't have a gunmetal platter, but a stainless steel one. There was someone there who claimed to have worked at Micro Seiki. He said that this protective coating also has a dampening function. That's why they omitted it from the RX 8000, so that they wouldn't get complaints about sound degradation if someone polished it and destroyed the seal.

新ネットワークブリッジやレコードプレーヤー、8K放送。Technics品薄

オーディオ・ビジュアル関連の展示会「OTOTEN 2017」が、東京国際フォーラムで5月13日に開幕、14日までの2日間開催される。入場は無料、主催は日本オーディオ協会。ホームオーディオ、ホームシアター、カーオーディオなどの注目製品が体験可能となっており、ここではホームオーディオ関連の6階フロアと、ヘッドフォンやポータブルオーディオ関連の4階フロアの模様をレポートする。なお、6階で展開しているDIATONEについては別記事で紹介している。

av.watch.impress.co.jp

Whether that's true can only be determined by comparing a polishedt one with one in original condition. I know that a friend reported something similar that sounds brighter like you said.
P.S
the successor techdas does the same the expensive models also have stainless steel platter

I understand that the stainless steel platter on my former SX 8000 II is damped from ringing by the vacuum hold down system and leather felt mat.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I understand that the stainless steel platter on my former SX 8000 II is damped from ringing by the vacuum hold down system and leather felt mat.

Gunmetal, which is 85% copper and 15% tin, is also used for bell construction. I think stainless steel has a different resonance behavior and doesn't vibrate within the audible range. Hence the choice for the top model. Today, most manufacturers use a composite platter made of different materials to positively alter the resonance behavior. My opinion on this.

 

[Juiced]

Is there a way to re-apply the special corrosion-proof material?

 

[mtemur]

P.S
the successor techdas does the same the expensive models also have stainless steel platter

That information is wrong. TechDas turntables have gunmetal or titanium platters. The top model has tungsten. Required dampening is achieved by air suspension and platter mat.

 

[DasguteOhr]

That information is wrong. TechDas turntables have gunmetal or titanium platters. The top model has tungsten. Required dampening is achieved by air suspension and platter mat.

Techdas af1

• Platter: Main Platter:
  • SUS316L Non-magnetic forged stainless steel. Weight 19 kg
• Platter: Upper Platter:
  • Choice of A7075 (4 kg) or Pure TITANIUM (6 kg)

Exactly the mass like rx 8000 only few grams diffrent.
I already mentioned above today used composite platter

P.S
buy tw acustic black night (3 motors )+ controller and acoustical systems platter use
It on a sx 8000 and you never need af1 techdas..promise

acoustical systems - SDP - the sonically most effective upgrade for every turntable

AXIOM tonearm AQUILAR tonearm SMARTractor archon cartridge AXIOM tonearm AQUILAR tonearm SMARTractor archon cartridge aiwon cartridge arche headshell UNI-Protractor acoustical systems HELOX record clamp UNI DIN

www.acoustical-systems.de

 

[mtemur]

Techdas af1

• Platter: Main Platter:
  • SUS316L Non-magnetic forged stainless steel. Weight 19 kg
• Platter: Upper Platter:
  • Choice of A7075 (4 kg) or Pure TITANIUM (6 kg)

It's titanium as I said, especially the AF1P. I heard AF1P with a tungsten platter but it's not offered as an option. It was TecDas's own AF1P.

Exactly the mass like rx 8000 only few grams diffrent.
I already mentioned above today used composite platter

Mass might be equal but used material has a very important role on sound signature. Titanium sounds very good in my opinion.

P.S
buy tw acustic black night (3 motors )+ controller and acoustical systems platter use
It on a sx 8000 and you never need af1 techdas..promise

Believe me you'll stiil need AF1 if sound quality is a need. TW Acoustic turntables cannot come close to AF3P let alone AF1P.

acoustical systems - SDP - the sonically most effective upgrade for every turntable

AXIOM tonearm AQUILAR tonearm SMARTractor archon cartridge AXIOM tonearm AQUILAR tonearm SMARTractor archon cartridge aiwon cartridge arche headshell UNI-Protractor acoustical systems HELOX record clamp UNI DIN

www.acoustical-systems.de

I haven't heard SDP equipped Verdier yet.

 

[DasguteOhr]

It's titanium as I said, especially the AF1P. I heard AF1P with a tungsten platter but it's not offered as an option. It was TecDas's own AF1P.

we agree we are both right

Mass might be equal but used material has a very important role on sound signature. Titanium sounds very good in my opinion.


Believe me you'll stiil need AF1 if sound quality is a need. TW Acoustic turntables cannot come close to AF3P let alone AF1P.

There was a communication problem. You replace the RY 5500 motor from the SX 8000 with a TW 3 motor drive + SDP platter, then you'll see how good a Micro Seiki 8000 is. The request for AF 1 is promised very small.

I haven't heard SDP equipped Verdier yet.

Drive in the allgäu ,germany there is platine verdier with SDP if you want to hear that, maybe I can ask for you in the AAA- forum.