What's best in highly sensitive/efficient speakers.

[ddk]

David,
The imaginary question - suppose that ET's stole your Bionor's and took them to another galaxy. Can you tell us of two models of horn speakers you would place in your room to replace them?

I'll probably go back to WE horns but this time build a bass horn with Klangfilm woofers. Failing that I can use the JBL K2 or any of the early JBLs I have, Tannoy Autograph or Vitavox corner horns, they're all about same level speakers but with very different sounds.

david

 

[jeff1225]

They are German. There isn’t really a mainstream horn maker in the US anymore other than Klipsch. Several very small companies ...

JBL is still making a large variety of horn speaker and compression drivers.

 

[microstrip]

(...) my view of live, unamplified music isn't like yours (and I played clarinet growing up and the piano more recently). the boston group on this forum attends concerts, chamber music in houses, etc - none of them own SET amps. what does that mean? absolutely nothing to me - we all like what we like and move on. (...)

Listening to live unamplified music can be a good thing to calibrate our sense of what we can expect from music and refresh of our memory, but IMHO can't be used as an absolute reference for general sound reproduction evaluation. On the contrary, people who use some specific reality risk focusing just on a few aspects of it and ignore all else. Sound reproduction designing is the art of managing compromises, not recreating facsimile sound waves - the real challenge to buyers is finding designs that match their preferences.

I do not consider that musicians or people deeply involved in music are better evaluators than common people, but I can understand that for marketing purposes it looks nice in the literature.

 

[microstrip]

I'll probably go back to WE horns but this time build a bass horn with Klangfilm woofers. Failing that I can use the JBL K2 or any of the early JBLs I have, Tannoy Autograph or Vitavox corner horns, they're all about same level speakers but with very different sounds.

david

Thanks. Which particular JBL K2's ? I had a few recommendations for the K2 S9800, but none for the S9900.

 

[bonzo75]

It was my dream during many years - going into DIY audio. But as years passed I understood better my limitations and the quality of other people work, consequently my interest is going down ...

You can be as limited as you want and still do DIY.

DIY is a broad category. David designed and built a table, Tang assembled an analog rig. In fact, got someone to assemble it for him. He didn't buy a whole black box of all components together. Analog is practically DIY compared to buying a speaker

 

[ddk]

Thanks. Which particular JBL K2's ? I had a few recommendations for the K2 S9800, but none for the S9900.

S9500/M9500 you can't drive any of the later ones properly with SETs and low wattage amplifiers. Also my experience with S9700 and S9800 wasn't all that great.

david

 

[microstrip]

You can be as limited as you want and still do DIY.

DIY is a broad category. David designed and built a table, Tang assembled an analog rig. In fact, got someone to assemble it for him. He didn't buy a whole black box of all components together. Analog is practically DIY compared to buying a speaker

I hope David will explain you that the AS2000 is not properly his "designed and built table" ...

And yes, assembling a tonearm to a turntable is not the type of DIY I was referring - I did it many times, last week was an SME3009 in an Oracle Delphi for friend. Sounded very decent with a Sumiko BluePoint II. I was addressing real work, including a lot of elbow grease, added to some creativity.

 

[ddk]

You can be as limited as you want and still do DIY.

DIY is a broad category. David designed and built a table, Tang assembled an analog rig. In fact, got someone to assemble it for him. He didn't buy a whole black box of all components together. Analog is practically DIY compared to buying a speaker

Not exactly DIY Ked . I have over 30 years manufacturing experience and actually owned factories and machine shops for years. Electronics were designed and manufactured by Bill Carlin engineer and manufacturer with decades of experience. Metal fabrication was done in one of the best facilities in US to ridiculous precision and then hand finished to perfection. AS 2000 is a very high end no compromise exclusive product and with a price to match. Even the flight cases were manufactured to be bulletproof. The limited run and sales model was by design to maintain exclusivity not inability to produce more or distribute through usual channels. DIY by it's very nature isn't reproducible and imperfect and forget about a business model. Don't confuse low volume with DIY, not even close.

david

 

[bonzo75]

Not exactly DIY Ked . I have over 30 years manufacturing experience and actually owned factories and machine shops for years. Electronics were designed and manufactured by Bill Carlin engineer and manufacturer with decades of experience. Metal fabrication was done in one of the best facilities in US to ridiculous precision and then hand finished to perfection. AS 2000 is a very high end no compromise exclusive product and with a price to match. Even the flight cases were manufactured to be bulletproof. The limited run and sales model was by design to maintain exclusivity not inability to produce more or distribute through usual channels. DIY by it's very nature isn't reproducible and imperfect and forget about a business model. Don't confuse low volume with DIY, not even close.

david

No David, my point is compared to buying a whole box of a speaker, ALL of analog is DIY. Whether you are you, vdh, or Tang. Everyone is doing some work ... Adjust VTA, set up something, measure something, on a daily basis. They don't do that for speakers at all.

So, like tang got a table from you, a cart from someone else, arm, and phono from others, and put them together, why not get driver, cabinet, horn, and crossover and put it together?

Why rely on one manufacturer to build the whole rig and leave it there untouched. Just like with a table or with a cart, not everyone has to build, and you can do what your limitations allow

 

[ddk]

I hope David will explain you that the AS2000 is not properly his "designed and built table" ...

And yes, assembling a tonearm to a turntable is not the type of DIY I was referring - I did it many times, last week was an SME3009 in an Oracle Delphi for friend. Sounded very decent with a Sumiko BluePoint II. I was addressing real work, including a lot of elbow grease, added to some creativity.

It's always been out there Francisco, AS2000 is a ground up redesign of an earlier turntable and wasn't presented as anything else. What do you think AF turntables are, they're all redesigns of 70's Micro Seikis including the AF0. They have the exact basic principle and architecture as those Micro SX series turntables, nothing new under the sun in this field Francisco, it's what you do and how far you understand and take that concept that matters. As far as AS production goes its generally higher quality than anything I know of today and certainly ahead of what was achievable in the 70’s boutique products.

david

 

[bonzo75]

It's the same with horns, all ground breaking designs were made. It's how far you understand and apply that matters. Great horns have been around for a century

 

[microstrip]

It's always been out there Francisco, AS2000 is a ground up redesign of an earlier turntable and wasn't presented as anything else. What do you think AF turntables are, they're all redesigns of 70's Micro Seikis including the AF0. They have the exact basic principle and architecture as those Micro SX series turntables, nothing new under the sun in this field Francisco, it's what you do and how far you understand and take that concept that matters. As far as AS production goes its generally higher quality than anything I know of today and certainly ahead of what was achievable in the 70’s boutique products.

david

Yes David, but as far as I remember you had the deserved privilege of owning an original American Sound Turntable and detailed plans/schematics of it. These thinks do not happen just because one day someone decides to go building a turntable - they are due to a cumulative live of dedication and effort.

 

[bonzo75]

Also, DIY does not mean better or worse than professional. It means done by somebody who is not a sustainable professional company that needs to pay regular expenses to employees and rent month on month to survive, and add in margins to meet that expense, as well as for the retail channel. In most contexts I prefer DIY (done rightly) as it is more customizable, more no holds barred rather than focused on cost cutting, so generally shared experience and quality of material in a DIY build is much higher.

 

[morricab]

all of audio is an "opinion" which unfortunately you just don't get. you have a "my way or the highway" view of audio that just doesn't jive with reality.

my view of live, unamplified music isn't like yours (and I played clarinet growing up and the piano more recently). the boston group on this forum attends concerts, chamber music in houses, etc - none of them own SET amps. what does that mean? absolutely nothing to me - we all like what we like and move on.

i'd also add that if SET/horns were the only true purveyor of sound, there would be many more manufacturers of such equipment. its a niche, just like panels and stats. for some its amazing, for others its not.

I think none of the guys in Boston have much experience with horns, SETs or panel speakers for that matter. Maybe I am wrong about this...

Again, your view as a musician is not the same as the view from a listener's perspective. Most musicians I know are listening primarily to the music and how it is played (it is well known that a lot of famous musicians have VERY modest stereos for listening to their music because the quality is not foremost in their desire to listen to music) rather than the absolute quality of the sound...so yes your view IS different from mine in that regard. As I said though, the musicians I knew who also really "got" the whole sound quality thing were simply blown away by panels with SETs or horns with SETs and "meh" towards more conventional sound systems. I saw this first hand when taking my ex to the Frankfurt (later Munich) High End show and ones around Switzerland. She invariably gravitated towards systems that sounded more real (to me as well) and would only stand in some rooms for a few seconds before leaving (that unnaturalness immediately detected and rejected). Some of her colleagues and friends (and her sister...also a pro violinist) were also like this.

Back when a single large speaker was acceptable in the house (mono remember) horns were the norm...domestic acceptance and WAF are much larger drivers than you perhaps appreciate...the discovery of high power with relatively low consumption allowed shinking speakers but also a drop in sound quality (IMO) and people and magazines adapted to this new reality with rationalization that horns sounded bad and tubes sounded bad and thank god for the transistor and the acoustic suspension or bass reflex cone/dome speaker to free us from those horrible honky transducers and colored electonics!! Except...not everyone bought into that narrative and some freaks in Japan and Europe and yes a few in the US kept those technologies alive to the resurrgence we now see today. If you don't think horns have resurged (or at least horn hybrids) then you haven't been paying attention. In 1980s and 90s you probably wouldn't have had much choice other than old theater speakers or Studio monitors, Klipsch and the biggest Tannoy Westminster. The Chinese (Line Magnetic) has even revived the oldest commercial theater horn concepts from Western Electric...as have the Japanese GIP labs. Go figure...this is 80+ year old tech revived and sounding great. So the number continues to grow...just like it has for SET, which was almost unheard of 25 years ago and now there are A LOT of SET makers out there...just nostalgia I guess.

As for my way or the highway...well I also like panel speakers, having owned Infinity IRS Betas, Apogee Caliper Signatures, Audiostatic RS100, STAX ELS81, Acoustat 1+1, Acostat Spectra 2200, Acoustat Spectra 4400 and DIY planar hybrids (with Bohlender Graebener RD planar driver)...at least up to moderate volumes they can sound very realistic spatially, tonally and microdynamically. They also can sound good with hybrid type amps and OTLs...horns are less forgiving.

 

[morricab]

Unfortunately Aries Cerat is not distributed in my country, otherwise I should have listened to it. Avantgarde are the unique horns with adequate local distribution.

Actually, I think there is now a distributor in Portugal.

 

[morricab]

Unfortunately Aries Cerat is not distributed in my country, otherwise I should have listened to it. Avantgarde are the unique horns with adequate local distribution.

Ultimate Audio in Lisbon.

 

[morricab]

JBL is still making a large variety of horn speaker and compression drivers.

Keith was saying not made anymore in the US but in Mexico...but you are right that they should be relatively widely available.

 

[morricab]

S9500/M9500 you can't drive any of the later ones properly with SETs and low wattage amplifiers. Also my experience with S9700 and S9800 wasn't all that great.

david

Have you heard the DD55000 Everest?

 

[jeff1225]

Not exactly DIY Ked . I have over 30 years manufacturing experience and actually owned factories and machine shops for years. Electronics were designed and manufactured by Bill Carlin engineer and manufacturer with decades of experience. Metal fabrication was done in one of the best facilities in US to ridiculous precision and then hand finished to perfection. AS 2000 is a very high end no compromise exclusive product and with a price to match. Even the flight cases were manufactured to be bulletproof. The limited run and sales model was by design to maintain exclusivity not inability to produce more or distribute through usual channels. DIY by it's very nature isn't reproducible and imperfect and forget about a business model. Don't confuse low volume with DIY, not even close.

david

The word I like to use is bespoke.

 

[ddk]

Yes David, but as far as I remember you had the deserved privilege of owning an original American Sound Turntable and detailed plans/schematics of it. These thinks do not happen just because one day someone decides to go building a turntable - they are due to a cumulative live of dedication and effort.

AS2000 isn't a direct copy, there are changes that improve all aspects of an already fantastic sounding turntable and new sets of drawings were done with those modifications. AF turntables are identical under the hood to Mr. Cho designs of 70's Micro Seiki turntables, there's even better access and privilege in that relationship. Every turntable made today is the same under the hood of another turntable that went before. Vinyl playback design was already at it's peak by the 70's and even 50's if you consider the EMT 927, but it was the only high end turntable at the time.

david