What's the best cassette deck ever?

[amirm]

Amir -- have you seen unweighted (and unprocessed, no Dolby) SNR specs? Not that it matters...

Curious - Don

You know, it took me half of hour of searching to find the bit I did! And what I post came out of someone's ebay listing or such. I just searched a bit more and didn't find anything. We do know though that Dolby C provided 15 db improvement (A-weighted). So subtracting that, we get 60 db which sadly, was the spec for just about every cassette deck out there which is to say, damn noisy. The narrow tape and slow speed does have a price.

 

[RBFC]

Well, since the market will probably have some high-end cassette decks for sale relatively cheap, I thought it would be interesting to know what kind of performance one might expect from such a model. With all the talk of R2R and its virtues, to achieve 80% of that performance via cassette could be an attractive alternative when looking for a tape-based source.

Lee

 

[amirm]

I had the same thought Lee. Wonder if someone would be willing to make cassette dubs like they are for R2R. The cost should be a lot lower since the equipment is so much cheaper and presumably the tapes are too.

I personally never liked the audio quality of any cassette tape I owned. It was always a big compromise relative to R2R. I did not have enough money to get into the high end of this market.

Dolf, how easy is it to find and buy Tandberg decks and such? What is a going price for a 3014/3014A? We could experiment with recording some LPs with it and see how far it gets us.

 

[amirm]

Oh, answered my own question and that of Don with an ebay search! http://cgi.ebay.com/Tandberg-TCD301...ctronics_R2&hash=item27b7b342a8#ht_2567wt_911

$1,300 asking price.

S/N ratio: 59db - 74db so I was 1 db off .

So looks like you have to use noise reduction.

 

[rbbert]

This is not really a technical debate.
It's a debate on what sounds best.
I can find a lot of better sounding amplifiers than those amazing measuring SS amps out there from some major japanese factories.
I can find fantastic better sounding R2R machines out there measuring a lot worse than any CD when it comes some of the parameters.

Niklas

Really? Measuring worse in what ways? Not frequency response, for sure. S/N ratio, maybe, but not if you consider "usable" S/N ratio, since analog tape records well below the noise level, and CD doesn't really record well even within 12-18 dB of the noise level. Wow/flutter, OK, nod to CD. (I should add I'm a big fan of CD and don't even have LP playback in my current system).

 

[DonH50]

Thanks Amir! That's sort of what I thought, and I have never really cared for Dolby C personally. I have measured players down in the 40's so 60 (or even 59) is actually pretty good SNR. Crosstalk is another huge problem with cassettes, of course... Not going to beat a 30 ips 2" (or even 1") master any time soon, though even the master's SNR is well below CDs (though much closer to inaudible).

rbbert -- Bit loss at low levels is one of those hidden issues with digital (seemingly) rarely discussed. Dither helps, but... Realistically, it's not a huge problem given the dynamic range of most systems vs. background noise.

 

[Bruce B]

This thread is like debating which AM radio is better. You're never going to get good sound out of a cassette deck... the limiting factors are tape speed/width. Elcaset improved on both points.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

This thread is like debating which AM radio is better. You're never going to get good sound out of cassette deck... the limiting factors are tape speed/width. Elcaset improved on both points.

Amen. In the heyday of cassette I was producing a lot of commercial audio. I had dozens of cassettes copied directly from the masters on the best decks, including Tanbergs, Naks, Revox and Teacs. With noise reduction they sounded dull and flat. Without it, they hissed. It was a good medium for the car before CDs came along.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

Due to the reduced tape width and speed, frequency response of cassette decks was measured at -15 or -20 db level. At 0 dB level the response barely reached 10 -12 kHz.

It is not comparable with open reel responses, that are usually measured at 0 dB.
Optimistically, the best cassette deck is 20% of an open reel at 15"

If someone is interested, please send a private message with the email and I will send a scan of the Nakamichi 1000 ZXL review of HFNRR September 1981 - the issue that published the test of the Quad ESL63!

 

[niklasthedolphin]

Some of you guys are so very wrong in your judgement.

We have made ABX tests here with some friends.
We also have made coffee & listening sessions.

Every time it turned out the same way.

Equipment in use was:
Speakers: Wilson Sofia & ProAc D25 Response
Power Amps was Audio Research VT-150 & OVC 48 W class A tube amps
Pre amps was Mark Levinson No 380s & Audio Research Ref 3
Wadia 521i, Mark Levinson 512, Audio Research Reference CD3, Pink Triangle CD.....................all CD players in the extreme Top of all CDs.
Recording sources were:
Lyrec Frida PTR-1 and Studer A80 playing original master tapes
Dunlop Systemdek IV modified with ext psu and upgraded motor+outbalanced platter/RB700/Benz L2/Whest .2/ringmat/brick wall mounted shelf/disc of silence feet
And the AnaLog with Helius Omega arm and Lyra Olympos

We also had Ergo2 / Stax Omega2 and AKG K1000 Earspeakers (as they are meant to be the best ever of their kind)

We also had Tandberg TPT 3001A, Magnum Dynalab MD 109 and Day Sequerra Studio1 FM tuners.
Be aware that we had radio broadcasting in old fashioned superior quality from classical and jazz live events from Swedish, Danish and Norwegian Public Service state radio stations with law regulated standard of sound quality.

The test was to hear difference from source to copy on Tandberg TCD 910 / TCD 3014A.
None out of 15 could.
These 15 were invited because most other people in High End HiFi related shops and exhibitions picked these people out as those with best ears and best ability to match gear with synergy.
No Double ended Noise Reduction were used.
(I rarely use double ended NR systems as they tend to degrade SQ like when digitizing analog reference sound.)

We recorded from CD's of high quality.
We also had several CD's with the same music material on LP. All handpicked for great masterings and high quality of sound.
We had some where we all judged that the LP was somewhat better than the CD.
Recording from LP and comparing to CD made tape better than CD.
We also made CDs from mastertapes played on R2R ½-track; 15 ips. CDs downmixed on stand alone DAWs as we (again) judged that downmixed on PC DAW was not as good.
Then we compared these high quality made CDs to cassette recording and found recording better.
Comparison from original FM, R2R, LP, CD, DVD-A were made lots of times and no ability to distinguish source from recording where traced at all.

(edit: We compared whatever high quality CD product we could imaginge, if necessary with other sources as a kind of intermediary or as original analog reference, having better quality than what is possible to buy as well as we used the best CDs we could find from own and friends shelves.
We also downmixed a digital master from 24/192 to redbook format.................as an example of how we tried to compare CD with cassette in any possible way.
No intention to compare R2R to cassette.
No intention to compare LP to cassette.)

TCD 910 will cost from ~ £ 1.000 - > £ 3.000 as used depending on condition.
When on the market.
400 psc of TCD 910 were made.
40 psc of TCD 911 were made.

Main Specs on mine are measured at service:
FR Me 16000 - 25000 Hz +/- 1,5 dB
THD Me < 0,7%
SNR Me 85dB weighted
Erase Ratio > 86dB
W&F 0,04% peak weighted
Crosstalk side A/B > 90dB
Crosstalk tracks > 74dB
Winding time C90 45s (1s pr m pt)


These specs might not be as great as CD but it certainly outperforms any CD.

Just because people have no such experience, they should not be rejecting facts.
Suggesting any conclusions related to something they know zill about is, generaly speaking, somehow a not so good idea.

But most other decks were just mediocre sound quality.
A few came up close to Tandberg TCD 3000 series regarding SQ.
Those were decks like Nakamichi CR7/ZX-9/Dragon
Teac Z-7000
B&O Beocord 9000 (but very fragile build quality)

Happy New Year and Halleluja.
;-)

"dolph"

 

[rbbert]

Due to the reduced tape width and speed, frequency response of cassette decks was measured at -15 or -20 db level. At 0 dB level the response barely reached 10 -12 kHz.

It is not comparable with open reel responses, that are usually measured at 0 dB.
Optimistically, the best cassette deck is 20% of an open reel at 15"

If someone is interested, please send a private message with the email and I will send a scan of the Nakamichi 1000 ZXL review of HFNRR September 1981 - the issue that published the test of the Quad ESL63!

Actually, most open-reel decks were tested at -20 dB also, with the best ones sometimes tested at 0 dB as well. Audio magazine made a big point about that when testing the Revox A700, that at 0 dB at 7.5 ips it could just better 15 kHz at -3 dB. Few if any cassette decks could ever manage even 10 kHz at -3 dB (referenced to 0 dB @ 1000 Hz).

OTOH, very little music has high-frequency energy even at -20 dB.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

So you found 15 guys who couldn't tell the difference between a Studer A80 playing original master tapes and a cassette? That couldn't have been easy.

Tim

 

[niklasthedolphin]

Excuse me if I created any cause to misunderstand what I wrote.
I am just a humble Scandinavian with English as my 4th language.

What was the purpose of this test was to use any possible comparison between CD and Cassette.
We used the R2R to make so-called "direct from master" CDs in a quality better than it's possible to buy from any shop shelve.

No intention to compare R2R to cassette.
No intention to compare LP to cassette.

We compared whatever high quality CD product we could imaginge, if necessary with other sources as a kind of intermediary or as original analog reference, having better quality than what is possible to buy as well as we used the best CDs we could find from own and friends shelves.
We also downmixed a digital master from 24/192 to redbook format.................as an example of how we tried to compare CD with cassette in any possible way.

"dolph"

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Yeah, I've been waiting for that one and frankly was a bit surprised that it didn't come sooner. In the end, it's better than I expected. You're merely saying that CD is indistinguishable in a blind test from a tiny sliver of analog tape running at tortise-like speeds over itty bitty heads. I expected someone to claim that cassettes were audibly superior to CDs. They are, after all, analog. Next up: the demonstrable superiority of 8-track.

You're going to have to excuse me, but I simply don't believe you.

Tim

 

[niklasthedolphin]

Yeah, I've been waiting for that one and frankly was a bit surprised that it didn't come sooner. In the end, it's better than I expected. You're merely saying that CD is indistinguishable in a blind test from a tiny sliver of analog tape running at tortise-like speeds over itty bitty heads. I expected someone to claim that cassettes were audibly superior to CDs. They are, after all, analog. Next up: the demonstrable superiority of 8-track.

You're going to have to excuse me, but I simply don't believe you.

Tim

You will also have to excuse me, but you simply lack experience in auditioning reproduced music with great quality of sound, to understand this.

Mind you, I am not talking of any cassette deck.
I am only talking about the line of Tandberg TCD 3000/900 series TOTL cassette decks in mint condition.

8-track is for people in junkyard cars from the US.

"dolph"

 

[Gregadd]

Well I think some had argued in the early days of CD that chromium dioxide cassettes offered the convience of cd and better sound.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

You will also have to excuse me, but you simply lack experience in auditioning reproduced music with great quality of sound, to understand this.

Mind you, I am not talking of any cassette deck.
I am only talking about the line of Tandberg TCD 3000/900 series TOTL cassette decks in mint condition.

8-track is for people in junkyard cars from the US.

"dolph"

I'm familiar with the decks you're talking about.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Well I think some had argued in the early days of CD that chromium dioxide cassettes offered the convience of cd and better sound.

Well, Greg, the early days are long gone, and evidently some still make that foolish argument.

Tim

 

[niklasthedolphin]

I'm familiar with the decks you're talking about.

Tim

I doubt that.

"dolph"

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I doubt that.

"dolph"

I'm also familiar with master tapes, analog recording studios, the equipment contained therein, and producing with and performing into all of the above. But your doubts are noted.

Tim