What's the most recent piece of audio equipment you have purchased and when?

[microstrip]

Every room has a fundamental resonant frequency that describes its volume. This cue lies in the bass, and also in the reverb times. I've heard many comments that adding a subwoofer has provided a sense of realism to recordings that was previously undiscovered.

Lee

Lee,

I wrote one of those comments! If the sub properly matches the main speakers and the room your words "sense of realism" are the only ones that can describe the situation. We can refer to the "floating image", "lack of strain", "aliveness" and many other words, but sense of realism says it all.

BTW, my best experience of this effect was adding a Martin Logan Descent subwoofer to a pair of Martin Logan Odissey electrostatics playing simple acoustic music with no deep bass content.

 

[DaveyF]

What I am trying to achieve is a slightly greater sense of ease and a slightly larger stage. My speakers fall off pretty much around 50Hz's, in my very small room even that is noticeable. Many pieces of music have a foundation that is at, or slightly below 50Hz's. IMO, a lot of classical tends to rely on that BIG splash if you will (crescendos) that are difficult for a small driver based speaker to reproduce. With a sub, the ability to move more air, is again IMHO, improved.( thereby allowing the mains to 'coast' a little) In my system, I am ONLY interested in a benefit to the music....NOT interested in the ability to mimic large explosions or other false effects. We shall see if the addition of this particular sub will be get me there or not. ( I am betting it will ).

 

[microstrip]

Just received TAS218 with a review of the Wilson Audio Alexandria X-2 Series 2 Loudspeaker and
Thor’s Hammer Subwoofer written by Jacob Heilbrunn. I quote him:

"The most noticeable change introduced by the Thors was a change in venue. This was a subtle but audible shift. The humidity of the room, if you will, was altered. It was as though the music became more three-dimensional, suffusing the air. To call this mere “palpability” does not suffice. Instead, the Thors greatly
increased the sense of dimensionality—a visual analogy might be that it was akin to watching a movie in 3-D. The frequency spectrum sounds even more continuous, more of a piece."

 

[fas42]

This is an easy one to test and I have. I use a TacT for room correction and x-over management. There is not a lot of low stuff but much music gets very whimpy if you are not producing the low end.

I set the crossover to 40hz, used a VERY steep crossover (144db/oct) and turned off the mains. The subs are working --- certainly not on every piece of music but more than you might think.

Now this is where it gets interesting. The subs were working, as in that you could hear them, it wasn't that you could see the cones moving or feel with your fingers the vibration of the enclosure or anything else, correct?

If so, how do you know that the sound you were hearing was not totally distortion, as in harmonics above 40Hz, no fundamental at all was being detected by your ears? If you put a mic on the sound in the room and recorded that supposed 40Hz and below sound you would get a big shock, with a huge spray of frequencies well above 40Hz happening.

Woofers are mega distortion generators, dead easy to get 10% and above distortion no matter how expensive they are. So what you are getting with different subwoofer arrangements is nicely customised, bass tonal enhancement, courtesy of tube like distortion ...

Frank

 

[LL21]

We shall see if the addition of this particular sub will be get me there or not. ( I am betting it will ).

So would i...i have done it...for 12 years and enjoyed every minute of what it did for my music. I now have Wilson X-1/Grand Slamms and i still use my Velodyne DD-18...running in parallel of course...set to 32hz with a 48db rolloff. good luck and pls post!

 

[LL21]

Just received TAS218 with a review of the Wilson Audio Alexandria X-2 Series 2 Loudspeaker and
Thor’s Hammer Subwoofer written by Jacob Heilbrunn. I quote him:

"The most noticeable change introduced by the Thors was a change in venue. This was a subtle but audible shift. The humidity of the room, if you will, was altered. It was as though the music became more three-dimensional, suffusing the air. To call this mere “palpability” does not suffice. Instead, the Thors greatly
increased the sense of dimensionality—a visual analogy might be that it was akin to watching a movie in 3-D. The frequency spectrum sounds even more continuous, more of a piece."

I cannot speak to Thor, but with my X-1/Grand Slamms, i can always tell if i forgot to flip on the Velodyne DD-18. Not instantly, but usually within 15-20 minutes, i get irritated and keep finding the sound lacking and keep turning it up...which does not really work after a few minutes. Then i wonder...did i flip on the sub?...and i check and find i forgot. Rarely happens...but i inevitably have this happen when it does. The only description i can give...is basically to quote Jacob H...and possibly to add the music feels fuller, more satisfying...not necessarily more bass per se, but somehow much more satisfying...such that i am happy to listen at super-low levels late in the evening when i dont wish to disturb the neighbors...

 

[mep]

In addition to fleshing out the bottom octave, subs also present us with the information of the room itself. Normally, when we think of a system reproducing "air," we think of high frequency air like the waves that come off cymbals as they are struck. Good subs add bottom end air that helps shape the soundstage/space the music was recorded in. As Lloydelee described, when you turn the sub(s) off, you notice something is wrong. Most people that say they don't like/need subs don't have them and have no idea what they are missing. Kind of the like the guy who tells you it's not the size, but how you use it because he doesn't have much size.

 

[LL21]

Hi MEP,

Thanks for adding a more detailed explanation. An example, i am working late tonite at home...and listening to Joe Williams (jazz) with the volume set at 8 (out of 99...with 95db efficient speakers, i've never ventured past 60 which was just for a momentary, deafening thrill and a laugh)...and i am perfectly happy because the sound is fulsome. I could never listen so softly without sub working.

 

[fas42]

Look at the chart of instrument frequency ranges and you'll see a whole bunch with information below 40Hz. Same way a drum won't be convincing if the higher frequency components are screwed up, the same goes for the low end. I'd rather like to think that a lot of people compromise when it comes to lower octave reproduction for the reasons that good low frequency extension is difficult to do, is the most expensive thing to do, and takes up a lot of space. If it weren't I think we'd see a lot more folks doing full range.

Jack, I see string bass, harp, contrabassoon, and pipe organ: how many times is that single note at the bottom end of the instrument played? Once, twice in a couple of hours of music listening, perhaps.

As I said in the previous post, it's all about how the distortion of the woofers adds to the sound, which then supports your argument for paying good money for bass reproduction. The only thing, people shouldn't confuse low frequency extension with better handling, less distortion of the higher, normal bass notes.

I think there is a really, really good joke in all this: if you actually built a zero compromise, statement subwoofer that produced no audible distortion it would be extremely disappointing to most people. Because, no distortion was enhancing the sound to the point that they were used to, and the playback would come across as being somewhat flat to them ...

Frank

 

[LL21]

Hi Frank,

1. I am not so sure no compromise statement sub would be disappointing to most people. Most people i know, when they hear a SOTA system, are awed...they still might think it is stupidly obsessive (and expensive) and not care...but they at least will say..."that's one of the best systems i have ever heard". Most people may not be able to fully grade 8 different systems...but when they hear something "right", you intuitively feel it because, after all, we use our ears 24/7.

2. There is waaay more information down there on most tracks than i ever realized before getting my system set up. Any time i play live blues album, every time the guitarist taps his foot to keep time near the damn mike, you hear that damn foot going and the woofer is moving along...but its also cool because in an amplified concert, no doubt everyone there heard it as well.

Many classical concerts have musical cues down there as well...rare, i agree, but it makes the difference when you do hear it...you get that ahhhhhh moment, because the dynamic range is full.

And on deep house music, it aint even close, there is sooo much information down there. They purposely play electronic tracks down thru the 20hz level for fun. Its like DSOM on speed...i think the drum/heart beats on the opening track of Pink Floyd are supposedly 20hz...

 

[fas42]

Many classical concerts have musical cues down there as well...rare, i agree, but it makes the difference when you do hear it...you get that ahhhhhh moment, because the dynamic range is full.

And on deep house music, it aint even close, there is sooo much information down there. They purposely play electronic tracks down thru the 20hz level for fun. Its like DSOM on speed...i think the drum/heart beats on the opening track of Pink Floyd are supposedly 20hz...

Howdy, Lloyd. I agree with the last point, synthesizers can certainly generate the real thing, but remember I'm not talking about the quality of the bass, but whether the extension below 40Hz is needed for the vast majority of recordings. I would like to see with that no compromise subwoofer, how many people could pick the difference if you digitally sliced off everything below 40Hz or not ...

with my X-1/Grand Slamms, i can always tell if i forgot to flip on the Velodyne DD-18. Not instantly, but usually within 15-20 minutes, i get irritated and keep finding the sound lacking

For a lot of people who are thinking of spending a lot of money on high end equipment, that's a pretty scary thing to say ...

Frank

 

[LL21]

Hi Frank.

I think there are probably not a lot of people who would notice the difference if you removed signal below 40hz...except those crazy audiophiles who listen to their systems all the time sunup to sundown...and know what deep bass feels like even when playing softly. Very few people do, but once you do...its addictive.

As for spending a lot of money and pretty scary things to say...not really actually...i used to do the sub thing with Guarneris...it was brutally difficult to blend it right and i honestly probably never labored enough to do it properly...but it gave me the semblance of the fullness that was something i prized highly, despite the uneven spectrum (which i ignored).

It does not cost a lot of money to get satisfying sound, if you are someone who knows their priorities and can be satisfied living within them. I have been fortunate to enjoy all of my systems...i also have been fortunate to be able to find second hand equipment that allows me to upgrade. But in any event, the money and sound do not always correlate...certainly seen plenty of money gone down the drain by someone who spent without doing their homework...

 

[fas42]

Hi Frank.

I think there are probably not a lot of people who would notice the difference if you removed signal below 40hz...except those crazy audiophiles who listen to their systems all the time sunup to sundown...and know what deep bass feels like even when playing softly. Very few people do, but once you do...its addictive.

As for spending a lot of money and pretty scary things to say...not really actually...i used to do the sub thing with Guarneris...it was brutally difficult to blend it right and i honestly probably never labored enough to do it properly...but it gave me the semblance of the fullness that was something i prized highly, despite the uneven spectrum (which i ignored).

It does not cost a lot of money to get satisfying sound, if you are someone who knows their priorities and can be satisfied living within them. I have been fortunate to enjoy all of my systems...i also have been fortunate to be able to find second hand equipment that allows me to upgrade. But in any event, the money and sound do not always correlate...certainly seen plenty of money gone down the drain by someone who spent without doing their homework...

Ah, you're a bottom man, and I like the top end to be in good shape. Ohh, sorry, this is a family safe forum ...

Frank

 

[JackD201]

Frank,

You're going schizo on us? LOL. You say you can't hear sub bass but go on and say 10% of sub bass' distortion gives the similar effect as distortion from a tube amp? What the....?

First of all since you are a strong proponent of psychoacoustics, I would expect that you understand that the hearing mechanism in toto is not just comprised by the ears and brain. It involves practically every nerve ending. In psychoacoustic terms "audible" is simply not defined as 20Hz to 20kHz used by Audiologists whose job is to fix ear (only) problems whose primary focus is speech intelligibility.

Our ancestors learned to know there was a stampeding herd of buffalos or wooly mammoths from feeling the LF from the bottoms of their feet. Distorted or not, they new there were big things out there. It's simple physics. Sound travels faster through solids and LF travels farther. Either they got out of the friggin' way or figured it was a great opportunity to get a meal. It could also have been the next tribe over pulling a prank by thumping logs on the ground which would be loosely analogous to the audiophile tribe using subwoofers. Just like "moving lots of air", that's gotta be a big tribe with LOTS of logs!

That piano in the other room is big. Sure anybody of the street could identify a piano from a 3 inch driver on a clock radio in another room. He'd have an easier time if the clock radio had low distortion. Maybe he could tell if it was a piano and not a harpsichord. YOUR premise for the thread is to mimic a real piano. A real piano will load the room with pressure waves and those waves will excite everything they collide with. To mimic one you'd have to provide similar levels of energy and energy transfer. As you like to say, the brain is a wonderful and mysterious thing. It can fill in a lot of blanks. It is still the ultimate processor. IBM has just come out with some processors based on the human brain. The fact remains though that the better the input, the less the brain has to work to fill in those blanks. The easier it becomes to forget that we are only listening to a copy of an event purposely set up to fool us.

I like how Tony Ky Ma puts it. In a system that is on song, what changes when the volume goes up is the perspective and not the tonal characteristics. Playing low it still sounds like a real piano, playing loud it's like you are just nearer to it. Now that is if you are in the same room. He is also using a full range system. Your exercise states that you aren't.

 

[DaveyF]

As for spending a lot of money and pretty scary things to say...not really actually...i used to do the sub thing with Guarneris...it was brutally difficult to blend it right and i honestly probably never labored enough to do it properly...but it gave me the semblance of the fullness that was something i prized highly, despite the uneven spectrum (which i ignored).

...

Lloyd, I am hoping that the much smaller REL will be a lot easier to get right with the GH's. The GH's are so fast and clean that it is no surprise to me that your DD-18 was brutally difficult to blend with them. I sometimes wonder if the choice of sub can impact the way a listener ultimately feels about his mains. How many of us have ditched the mains believing that they were an issue, when in fact the sub/mains synergy was the problem.

 

[fas42]

Frank,

You're going schizo on us? LOL. You say you can't hear sub bass but go on and say 10% of sub bass' distortion gives the similar effect as distortion from a tube amp? What the....?

No, I'm saying tubes harmonically enhance the playback in many amps. And in the same way subwoofers harmonically enhance the bass content ...

First of all since you are a strong proponent of psychoacoustics, I would expect that you understand that the hearing mechanism in toto is not just comprised by the ears and brain. It involves practically every nerve ending. In psychoacoustic terms "audible" is simply not defined as 20Hz to 20kHz used by Audiologists whose job is to fix ear (only) problems whose primary focus is speech intelligibility

Studio records a top notch classical guitarist. Then in the workstation they savagely slice every last scrap of info below 60Hz, to -100dB down. One version will sound like crap, the other could put you in heaven, is that correct?

To mimic one you'd have to provide similar levels of energy and energy transfer.

Exactly, and no big deal for a system working correctly. Just ask Roger (our Roger, that is) about how the apparent volume alters as the SQ varies. He believes the real, measurable volume alters. I'm sure it doesn't. But one's head is saying that it's varying, because the quality of the input is changing, and the brain then interprets it differently. It has absolutely nothing to do with the physical size of the piano, or anything else

I like how Tony Ky Ma puts it. In a system that is on song, what changes when the volume goes up is the perspective and not the tonal characteristics. Playing low it still sounds like a real piano, playing loud it's like you are just nearer to it. Now that is if you are in the same room. He is also using a full range system. Your exercise states that you aren't.

Hey, Jack, wakey, wakey, wrong thread, mate! But I agree with Tony 100%, that's a measure of a system working correctly.

Frank

 

[fas42]

I sometimes wonder if the choice of sub can impact the way a listener ultimately feels about his mains. How many of us have ditched the mains believing that they were an issue, when in fact the sub/mains synergy was the problem.

Yes, yes. As I'm saying, the subwoofer is distorting, throwing out harmonics, And the woofer in the mains is doing the same thing. So if those harmonics from 2 sources are "fighting" each other, or clashing, then the system possibly won't sound too good ...

Frank

 

[JackD201]

No, I'm saying tubes harmonically enhance the playback in many amps. And in the same way subwoofers harmonically enhance the bass content ...


Studio records a top notch classical guitarist. Then in the workstation they savagely slice every last scrap of info below 60Hz, to -100dB down. One version will sound like crap, the other could put you in heaven, is that correct?


Exactly, and no big deal for a system working correctly. Just ask Roger (our Roger, that is) about how the apparent volume alters as the SQ varies. He believes the real, measurable volume alters. I'm sure it doesn't. But one's head is saying that it's varying, because the quality of the input is changing, and the brain then interprets it differently. It has absolutely nothing to do with the physical size of the piano, or anything else


Hey, Jack, wakey, wakey, wrong thread, mate! But I agree with Tony 100%, that's a measure of a system working correctly.

Frank

Too much Scotch last night. LOL

 

[fas42]

Too much Scotch last night. LOL

At the last family getogether my glass was being refilled with Johnnie Walker Blue Label every time I turned around -- I drink such straight -- so I know the (very nice!) feeling ...

Frank

 

[JackD201]

At the last family getogether my glass was being refilled with Johnnie Walker Blue Label every time I turned around -- I drink such straight -- so I know the (very nice!) feeling ...

Frank

sipped straight up, ain't no other way!