When a Tweak becomes something more

[MarkusBarkus]

I've found in-home demos for gear to be invaluable, but I can't see how to do that for speakers.

...speakers, especially big/heavy speakers, must be the most difficult pieces for home demo. And a bit of a leap of faith as well.

I have the comparatively "light-weight" Magico A5s, but even so, a full-on project to get them 64 miles/100km from shop to home. I thought it was fair that the shop asked for a delivery fee to move and set them up.

As this was a new dealer relationship, they actually asked that I purchase them, with the promise of a full refund, minus delivery cost. If these were 60K speakers, that would be a fun conversation.

I thought the speakers sounded to my taste in the shop, but the room was a bit crowded, so I was confident they would be better at my place. And they are.

And therein lies the "leap of faith" aspect. I think you would need a strong dealer relationship and a lot of confidence that you/your dealer/acoustic designer could get things right at home. Imagine moving those giant Easter Island Moai statue Wilsons home and disliking them. Whoah. That would be painful on many levels.

 

[PYP]

...speakers, especially big/heavy speakers, must be the most difficult pieces for home demo. And a bit of a leap of faith as well.

I have the comparatively "light-weight" Magico A5s, but even so, a full-on project to get them 64 miles/100km from shop to home. I thought it was fair that the shop asked for a delivery fee to move and set them up.

As this was a new dealer relationship, they actually asked that I purchase them, with the promise of a full refund, minus delivery cost. If these were 60K speakers, that would be a fun conversation.

I thought the speakers sounded to my taste in the shop, but the room was a bit crowded, so I was confident they would be better at my place. And they are.

And therein lies the "leap of faith" aspect. I think you would need a strong dealer relationship and a lot of confidence that you/your dealer/acoustic designer could get things right at home. Imagine moving those giant Easter Island Moai statue Wilsons home and disliking them. Whoah. That would be painful on many levels.

Glad that worked out. Experience allows us to intuit some of the effect of a change. I think many dealers (at least in my experience) have suboptimal rooms and/or setup for speakers.

I'm far OT in asking about speakers in a tweak thread, but I'm assuming that one needs to consider overloading the room with a large speaker and that no tweaking can fix overloading therefore right-sizing is vital.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...it does seem there would be a speaker that would be flat-out too much for a room. Frankly, that was a key driver for the A5s. I felt bigger M-type Magicos would overwhelm the space, and the cost and hassle to test that theorem was just more than I wanted to engage.

 

[Cellcbern]

Look, I don't have ill intent to CC. My comment was not well posted. I don't believe it constitutes a excuse for personal attacks.

After I started this thread, I became somewhat confused on what the whole of the concept really meant. My mind started going to every single component we apply in high end audio is a tweak. Right????? Once you step outside the manufacturer power cord, you're tweaking. Once you decide to put something on a shelf and not on the floor, you're tweaking. Everything seems to be a tweak. Once you add a dedicated circuit outside the 14 awg romex that feeds everything in your living room, it's a tweak. I got a bit lost myself in how to move forward with the concept. I guess it comes down to what tweaks matter. What improves a stereo. In a meaningful way. Maybe they all do. And maybe that is the issue. I have 11 cords in my system. I built 7 myself and 2 of the 4 I bought and use are CC. The CC are on my tape outboard preamp and NAB/IEC adapter. A pretty critical area in my system. Go figure.

Maybe the question is, where does Tweaking and Tuning diverge. Or are they the exact same thing.

And yes, I am a part of the , Hey, you can make your system perform better if you do this. I am a part of the merry go round. I started doing what I am doing because I wanted to help. I saw an issue. As I have personally bounced through numerous componants over the years, I hit levels of exhaustion at times. I wasted $12K on SET tube amp. That hurt. And every time I look at what I have and consider, can it be better, there is always 10 other things waiting to be investigated to see if they help in my situation. It's kind of never ending. Its almost frustrating there is not a guide on right and wrong in audio. Its unfortunate there can not be one. I don't see how.

"Every single component we apply in high end audio is a tweak" only if you define tweak that way. That is not how I define tweak and not how it has traditionally been defined in the audiophile community and press. There are exceptions but high end component manufacturers typically either do not supply power cords or they include cheap "throw-away" power cords because they expect their customers to add their own audiophile grade power cables. Did your Dartzeel come with a PC? So no - adding an audiophile power cable is not tweaking. Putting something on a "shelf" (I'm going to take that to include racks and stands) is part of basic system setup - not tweaking. Did you start off with your turntable on the floor? When I built my listening room the dedicated line and breaker box were designed in, however if you were adding one for an existing listening room then perhaps it could be considered a tweak. While the line between system assembly/setup and tweaking is not rigidly fixed the basic concept is clear. System assembly is the foundation. System setup is also foundational but may include some tweaking. Once you have your system playing music you refine its sound quality over time by tweaking/tuning/listening. I view tweaking and tuning to be similar, although I probably think/talk about tuning more with regard to room acoustics and tweaking more with regard to components. That the need for/process of tweaking constitutes an "issue" for you as opposed to being part of the adventure, discovery, and fun inherent in the hobby I find puzzling as I find many of your posts. Perhaps it is your training/work as an electrician which involves more science and less "art" than optimizing a high end audio system involves, that is the source of your frustration. It there was a guide that spelled out what worked and what didn't thereby eliminating the need for experimentation what would be the motivation for creativity on the part of audio designers? What would be the need for WBF? What would WBF posters share if not their discoveries and insights?

 

[marty]

Thank you for this report, Marty!

I know Marty pretty well. He is the biggest audiophile masochist I have ever known. Who else has the patience to test extensively and laboriously AC duplex wall plates with careful methodology? Who else has the patience to test extensively and laboriously AC plugs with careful methodology?

I have not heard David's Ching Cheng power cords. But I am very much looking forward to putting them in my system, and listening with them! Someday I look forward to comparing them to other power cords.

If anything the psychologists probably would say that Marty has bias in favor of the custom power cords he made himself. But Marty is a professional scientist, not a typical befuddled and biased audiophile.

I find Marty's report to be extremely probative.

Ron, you're very kind but another conclusion of your remark is that I have successfully figured out even new ways to spend time and money and accomplish very little! However, one comment that you made is not true. I have no bias whatsoever for expensive power cords. A few years ago, I tried a 10K TaraLabs power cord that Fremer raved about. I thought it was the darkest, most colored cable I ever heard and moreover, the CC simply blew it away. Yup- 10 bucks vs 10K. But just to be clear, I am as befuddled and as biased as any audiophile. It just depends on the issue.

 

[PeterA]

Ron, you're very kind but another conclusion of your remark is that I have successfully figured out even new ways to spend time and money and accomplish very little! However, one comment that you made is not true. I have no bias whatsoever for expensive power cords. A few years ago, I tried a 10K TaraLabs power cord that Fremer raved about. I thought it was the darkest, most colored cable I ever heard and moreover, the CC simply blew it away. Yup- 10 bucks vs 10K. But just to be clear, I am as befuddled and as biased as any audiophile. It just depends on the issue.

Marty, That power cord comparison does not surprise me one bit. I find the Ching Cheng to be neutral and natural sounding in the few systems in which I have heard them. If one's system is moving in that general direction, many alternatives will sound colored. It is immediately audible. Many such cords seem to be favored because they balance other sonic colorations in a given system, or they enhance to add excitement. It is a matter of system balance and overall result. Perhaps Fremer needed dark cords at the time. Your system seems able to reveal these colorations.

Out of curiosity, are your CC from ddk, or a different version? I ask because $10 bucks is pretty darn cheap. I have a friend who has some that he is not using, but he is unwilling to sell them to me. My old stock Pass Labs power cords were Ching Cheng and they sounded better than my various audiophile cords and some other popular ones I had in for demo. The older ones from ddk are even better than the stock ones from Pass Labs.

I am befuddled as well, and the CC cords are highly controversial. They are simply basic, commercial grade cords that work. Are they a tweak? I will let others enjoy that debate. The stock cords that come with the gear are not.

 

[PeterA]

And every time I look at what I have and consider, can it be better, there is always 10 other things waiting to be investigated to see if they help in my situation. It's kind of never ending. Its almost frustrating there is not a guide on right and wrong in audio. Its unfortunate there can not be one. I don't see how.

There are certainly guides for the hobby, but I don't know if they are about right and wrong. Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound" is one such guide, and worth reading if you have these types of questions. It is a good book and it might help you. Wilson and Magico also provide speaker set up guidelines for their speakers. Some find those helpful too.

I had two pairs of Magico speakers for years and really enjoyed them. The best sound I achieved however, was by not following their set up guide. The guide was simply an easy outline which resulted in decent, but not optimal, sound. It is there as a convenience and quick set up guide to help the customer or dealer to get started and achieve basic results. Better results can be achieved, but they require a lot more effort, time, and willingness to listen and understand what you are hearing. A reference or target for the sound or experience you want to achieve helps a lot.

 

[Cellcbern]

Marty, That power cord comparison does not surprise me one bit. I find the Ching Cheng to be neutral and natural sounding in the few systems in which I have heard them. If one's system is moving in that general direction, many alternatives will sound colored. It is immediately audible. Many such cords seem to be favored because they balance other sonic colorations in a given system, or they enhance to add excitement. It is a matter of system balance and overall result. Perhaps Fremer needed dark cords at the time. Your system seems able to reveal these colorations.

Out of curiosity, are your CC from ddk, or a different version? I ask because $10 bucks is pretty darn cheap. I have a friend who has some that he is not using, but he is unwilling to sell them to me. My old stock Pass Labs power cords were Ching Cheng and they sounded better than my various audiophile cords and some other popular ones I had in for demo. The older ones from ddk are even better than the stock ones from Pass Labs.

I am befuddled as well, and the CC cords are highly controversial. They are simply basic, commercial grade cords that work. Are they a tweak? I will let others enjoy that debate. The stock cords that come with the gear are not.

The sound of power cords and other cables is system dependent because what you hear is always a function of the contributions of all of the cables (it is not possible to listen to an individual cable) and components (it is not possible to listen to a component except via cables). If Ching Cheng power cords maximize synergy in particular systems that's fine and shouldn't be controversial. It is possible that the expensive Tara Labs PC didn't sound dark to Mr. Fremer in his system, or that it did and he preferred it that way. It is also possible that if a Ching Cheng user continued to try different PC's he/she might find something better.

 

[tima]

I find the Ching Cheng to be neutral and natural sounding in the few systems in which I have heard them. If one's system is moving in that general direction, many alternatives will sound colored. It is immediately audible. Many such cords seem to be favored because they balance other sonic colorations in a given system, or they enhance to add excitement. It is a matter of system balance and overall result.

I find David's CC let me hear my Lamm gear without the sonic alterations that other power cords make. Upon initial use on my M1.2s it was immediately obvious. All cords have an influence, blah blah blah, but I don't know how to describe the influence of the CC. Lamm comes with CC cords which are also pretty good.

I am befuddled as well, and the CC cords are highly controversial.

We've come from wire as snake oil to scepticism over wire not branded as 'audiophile'.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The sound of power cords and other cables is system dependent because what you hear is always a function of the contributions of all of the cables (it is not possible to listen to an individual cable) and components (it is not possible to listen to a component except via cables). . . . It is possible that the expensive Tara Labs PC didn't sound dark to Mr. Fremer in his system

Exactly. We have to understand the fact that the “sound” of a cable exists only in relation to the electrical characteristics of the two components it is connecting.

The suggestion that “[p]erhaps Fremer needed dark cords at the time” fails to appreciate this fundamental fact.

 

[BruceD]

Imagine moving those giant Easter Island Moai statue Wilsons home and disliking them. Whoah. That would be painful on many levels.

Ha!--Sparked a memory-- in the mid 70's when I worked part time in an Audio retail outlet one of their Agencies was Cerwin Vega Speakers.
They made a speaker they called Aku Aku's based and modelled on the Easter island Statues

I never saw a pair in the flesh only brochure pics--wonder if any sold--ha!

Pardon the thread digression-carry on folks.

BruceD

 

[Kingrex]

Is this the correct Ching Cheng to compare to other cords. This is actually only controlling the motor on my Otari 5050. I have 2 and want to move them into a couple positions in my system to compare to an Akiko power cord with brass ends and cords I made with 12 awg twisted TEW. The hot and nautral are twisted, the ground is loose, conductive mylar is over the top with a 20 awg dead soft silver wire as a drain with tech flex over the top and a budget brass female IEC. But i want to know I have the correct cable in hand. I have another pair that are all black ends, also 14 awg but are shielded.

 

[Cellcbern]

Is this the correct Ching Cheng to compare to other cords. This is actually only controlling the motor on my Otari 5050. I have 2 and want to move them into a couple positions in my system to compare to an Akiko power cord with brass ends and cords I made with 12 awg twisted TEW. The hot and nautral are twisted, the ground is loose, conductive mylar is over the top with a 20 awg dead soft silver wire as a drain with tech flex over the top and a budget brass female IEC. But i want to know I have the correct cView attachment 99299View attachment 99300able in hand. I have another pair that are all black ends, also 14 awg but are shielded.

Ching Cheng vs. Zenwave "shootout" - FYI:

Zen wave vs...Ching Cheng..a power cable shoot out

Zen wave vs...Ching Cheng..a power cable shoot out

www.audiocircle.com

 

[PeterA]

Ching Cheng vs. Zenwave "shootout" - FYI:

Zen wave vs...Ching Cheng..a power cable shoot out

Zen wave vs...Ching Cheng..a power cable shoot out

www.audiocircle.com

I did a similar shootout in my old system, but with a different Ching Cheng and an older Zenwave. Despite what daveyf says in that linked thread, that photo is not of the same Ching Cheng cord that I got from member ddk. His have a clear connector, not black like in the photo. It is not the same cord. I also compared the second wave to the stock Ching Cheng power cord from my Pass Labs amplifiers.

Both CCs and the Zenwave did indeed sound very different. I preferred the two commercial grade cords in my system. The Zenwave is a very different type of sound and I understand why people like them in some systems. I listened to the new ones just the other day at a friends place.

I found this post from the linked thread to be quite interesting:

Some folks around here may get a kick out of reading this 27 power cord shootout review:
https://audiobacon.net/2019/08/17/27-audiophile-power-cables-reviewed/

I asked the reviewer Jay in comments why certain "generic" power cords can sometimes sound more neutral and/or color the sound less. I thought his answer was interesting:
"I believe part of the reason is that by using generic power cords, you’re straying less from the “norm.” Norm being that most of this music is created without fancy power cords to begin within. And since most of us don’t have the luxury to have a system for each genre of music – we want ours to be genre-independent. So as you’ve said, some of these cables completely remove “intent” and instead provide a different listening experience. Not all audiophiles want “the truth” but prefer to be taken away by these colorations (or lack of). And that’s completely fine."

 

[Cellcbern]

Ching Cheng vs. Zenwave "shootout" - FYI:


I did a similar shootout in my old system, but with a different Ching Cheng and an older Zenwave. Despite what daveyf says in that linked thread, that photo is not of the same Ching Cheng cord that I got from member ddk. His have a clear connector, not black like in the photo. It is not the same cord. I also compared the second wave to the stock Ching Cheng power cord from my Pass Labs amplifiers.

Both CCs and the Zenwave did indeed sound very different. I preferred the two commercial grade cords in my system. The Zenwave is a very different type of sound and I understand why people like them in some systems. I listened to the new ones just the other day at a friends place.

So how many different Ching Cheng PC’s are there, and do they all sound similar? Is there a particular version that is sonically superior to the others?

 

[Kingrex]

@PeterA
Does the image of the CC I posted in #32 look like yours. I have another pair with all black ends I got from someone other than Dave. One set has to be it. I have another pair too but they are black ends and 16 awg. I can't see using 16 awg.

 

[PeterA]

@PeterA
Does the image of the CC I posted in #32 look like yours. I have another pair with all black ends I got from someone other than Dave. One set has to be it. I have another pair too but they are black ends and 16 awg. I can't see using 16 awg.

I can’t tell from the photograph Rex. It looks like mine but I don’t know. Why don’t you just listen to all the ones you have and see what you think. I remember my stock cords that came with my electronics sounded better than the audio file power cords I tried. It depends on what you’re looking for when it comes to the sound of this stuff.

 

[PeterA]

So how many different Ching Cheng PC’s are there, and do they all sound similar? Is there a particular version that is sonically superior to the others?

I have no idea how many there are. I suspect they all sound different. I’ve got about seven that are old and identical and they all sound better than the newer ones I’ve tried. The ones I have are no longer available and have been long discontinued.

 

[Cellcbern]

I can’t tell from the photograph Rex. It looks like mine but I don’t know. Why don’t you just listen to all the ones you have and see what you think. I remember my stock cords that came with my electronics sounded better than the audio file power cords I tried. It depends on what you’re looking for when it comes to the sound of this stuff.

Which audiophile power cables did you prefer the Ching Cheng over, and was this preference on amps/preamps only or on source components too?

 

[Kingrex]

I took the CC from the image above and plugged it into my Allnic H1201. I let it run for 4 or 5 hours.

I sat down with a new issue of Joni Mitchel Blue.

The CC was plugged into a power strip wired with Oyaide to a Hubbell 5362 industrial duplex with heavy brass backstrqp.

It was compared to 10 awg TEW twisted and pulled in steel to a box with 12 awg TEW twisted, mylar wrap, silver drain and basic brass female end. The 10 and 12 are wire nutted together.

The CC is better. A little more clean in a good way. A little more breath of life.

The differences are close, but heard. I felt myself keep gravitating to the CC.

I played the 2nd side through with both eating some dinner. Then I began to back to back a couple different songs. One then the other. I kept finding the CC chain to grab my attention.

FWIW I like solid branch wire. This test is polluted as the main trunk was shielded/solid Oyaide compared to Stranded TEW in a steel pipe. A big fundimental branch difference. I am going to do the same test at the tape dech. That location has an duplex with cords so the only change is the cord from duplex to equipment.

But, it says a lot to me when a cord to duplex beats a wire nut connection.
Rex