When is enough, enough, or how to get off the bandwagon??

[Phelonious Ponk]

There is no shame, for you, in my not understanding. And I wish you had excesses of disposable income as well. I wish we all did. I'm off the bandwagon simply because I've decided to be. It has actually held for a few years. I know from experience, though, that the wagon has a tendency to circle back around, filled with beautiful ladies who wave, and call out to me to come aboard...

Tim

 

[thedudeabides]

Can't say I hate to see the dude go, Bob.

Mod edit: Let's not discuss each other please. All members are welcome as long as they follow forum rules.

Tim

Yes PP,

I am gone. Your wishes have been fulfilled.

I will share my thoughts, as to why I've made this decision, with Steve and Amir.

PS: FWIW, I do want to share an experience I had this afternoon.

I live in Jackson, WY aka Jackson Hole, and work for the local County jurisdiction. I principally manage and / or design projects including bike paths, County facilities including the Emergency Operations Center, and the Juvenile Crisis shelter. I was also charged with completing a hi end resort development that went bankrupt, known as the Snake River Sporting Club.

The Board of County Commissioners, my boss, called in $6.1M of Letters of Credit to complete infrastructure improvements necessary to allow folks, who had purchased property, to occupy their residences. Potable water, fire protection, sanitary sewer, emergency access, and all that stuff.

We are very close to finishing (($6,850 left out of the $5.593M left for this portion of the project) but had an issue with an active bald eagles nest. Myself, along with Susan Patla of the Wyoming Game and Fish Dept., observed the nest, and saw three new eaglets. I stopped all construction activity, for four weeks, to ensure that the eaglets would not be impacted by any of our activity.

Amazing how big the size of their beaks are in relation to their size, as viewed through a powerful scope, at three weeks. Think a puppy's paws for a large dog.

Both mom and pop were there, after we arrived, displaying their displeasure at our presence.

What are we threatened by and why is that important?

Long live the King!

 

[Bill Hart]

I don't want to divert from whatever happens (or happened) with the Dude, but here's my take:
there is almost no correlation between the amount of money spend on a hi-fi system and its ability to communicate a musical performance. Most musicians I know (and I spend quite a bit of time in that world) don't have serious h-fi systems, and while they can appreciate them, they can get the musical 'message' from a car radio or a boombox. Why? They are listening to something different than 'we' (audiophiles) are. We pride ourselves on our ability to listen critically, but often, that takes the form of listening in a bubble, not in comparison to real music, but in comparison to that 'other preamp' or those 'other speakers' which did or didn't do X quite as well. Real music doesn't present that way. I heard a trio yesterday, playing outdoors in a small space with a small PA. The voices were actually a little squawky because of the mike and PA, the image placement of the guitar and the rhythym box were not precise in space, etc.
I heard a big, expensive system recently- it had utterly deep bass, a genuinely large and cohesive sound stage, open, airy and non-fatiguing high frequencies, and was smooth as silk on the female vocal part. It sounded like a beatiful reproduction, it was almost like one of those photo-realistic paintings that looked better than real. It did not, however, engage me in the musical performance.
I listened to Quad ESLs since 1973 and still have my pair (though they now need to be restored, i'm actually afraid to plug them into the wall). Despite all the known limitations of this speaker, it could convey something about musical truth that systems with far more bandwidth, dynamics, and overall capability fail to produce. Granted, it was not something that you could play modern rock music on effectively, but not just because of its inability to play loud and go deep. Those old recordings were pretty simple- they had to be, the technology was pretty primitive. Today, we have computers to simulate tubes so that when the all the parts get punched in, retimed and assembled, it sounds more analog. And, in the process, we've destroyed any possibility that the source material can sound like a group of people playing music together in the same space.
This is not a rant against digital, or technology, as such. But, one of the reasons why we are endlessly unsatisfied, and there is the constant need to upgrade, is that the equipment is designed to go deeper, play louder, or image better. And, in the service of these criteria, technology and design make all the parts better, but somehow, it's not cohesive and doesn't communicate the music very effectively. It is bigger and better in every way except one- it doesn't reveal a coherent view of the musical event. Just like the recordings that are often played on these systems.
The idea of going back to pre-war stuff, or even the old Quads, seems a little silly to most people. I jumped on the horn, SET thing a while ago and my biggest source of unhappiness is the bass, which emanates from modern, small woofers that just don't match the sound of the midrange and tweeter horns (Avantgarde Duos). I could do with less bandwidth, if there was more coherence.
The same might be said about this post, but that's my reaction to a very compelling question, and one I have been thinking about a fair amount recently, since I just reemerged after a hiatus from the 'audio' pursuit.

 

[Mosin]

I may be different from the majority of audiophiles because I am a minimalist. I don't want any more widgets with knobs and things in my system than are absolutely necessary, and I am not looking to upgrade. I have a Spartan sort of system that consists of a few good pieces that are connected with good wires in a decent room, and that is enough to make me happy.

 

[Andre Marc]

How to get off the band wagon?

Easy. Buy tube amps. preferably ARC, Rogue, McItntosh, or CJ,

Buy a Thiel spekaer. Connect with Transparent cabling.

Sit back, enjoy.

If you must go solid state, buy Marantz

Lastly, don't read reviews...

Hope this helps!

Today, one of my a'phile friends commented to me that this is his 40th year in the hobby and he still wasn't really that happy with the sound he was getting. OTOH, he gave me a very nice compliment and said that he felt I was pretty close to being there. By there, he apparently meant at a place where the music happened and I shouldn't be expecting too much more. I don't think that is necessarily the case with my system and like all of us, I still want to strive for a more "Absolute Sound". However, this did get me thinking, where do we draw the line on a home system and "get off the bandwagon" or do we/can we?
Food for thought

 

[treitz3]

Hello, whart and welcome to the WBF!

We pride ourselves on our ability to listen critically, but often, that takes the form of listening in a bubble, not in comparison to real music, but in comparison to that 'other preamp' or those 'other speakers' which did or didn't do X quite as well.

Agreed. I see examples of this quite often, unfortunately. I enjoyed your post and look forward to hearing more of your observations. IMO, one shouldn't be comparing or evaluating one piece of gear to another, the comparison should be to real music. We'll see you around the forum and again, welcome to the fray. Enjoy the music.

Tom

 

[NorthStar]

---Whart, I read your two first posts, and I like very much. :b

Welcome!

 

[NorthStar]

...And Gordon (the Dude), I feel sad and I wish you would be stronger emotionally, but I do understand.
Come back anytime you feel like it, to share more with us, because some of us can benefit from your feedbacks.

Peace & Strength wherever you are and go in life; here, there, and everywhere.

Bests,
Bob

 

[DaveyF]

The Dude ( Gordon) has apparently left the forum, or is no longer posting. Which, IMO is a shame as everyone is entitled to their opinion and whether or not we like it, that's the way it should be.
On public forums, such as this one, there will inevitably be people who you cannot a) agree with and b) rub you the wrong way. That's why I had a flame suit built years ago, LOL. Must say that recently it has gotten a lot of use....maybe time to get a new, stronger version

Back to the discussion on hand, Andre, you say don't read reviews....this from a professional reviewer Probably very good advise, LOL

 

[Bill Hart]

Thanks, NorthStar. What led me here originally was Carl's series of eloquent and self-deprecating reviews about the Allnic equipment. I recognize a number of names here from other places, both on the 'Net and in reality.
Best,
Bill Hart

 

[Tonepub]

I don't know if you ever really get off the bandwagon. I guess my take is somewhere between Tim and Mike. Because I do this for a living, I have to maintain a certain level of reference gear to be valid. I enjoy the main reference system I've bought and it works equally well as a platform for evaluating other gear, yet fun to listen to music on at the end of the day when work is done.

And like Mike, I'm at a point where I'm very happy with the sound, yet new things come along that push the boundaries further and I have to decide if that's worth writing the big check for or not.

What I always find so disappointing is that many people take this all so personally, and what I've seen in about 30 years of doing this is that everyone gets their joy from a different aspect of it. One person loves to hunt down the unobtainable piece of gear or incredible pressing while another is a fanatic for turntable setup, etc etc etc. I've made it a point to try and learn something from each of them, because they all have kernels of knowledge that I don't possess.

For me it's about fun and camaraderie. I've met all of the best friends in my life because of music and hifi. I can have a great time listening to just about anything. I have my preferences, but I can't lose any more sleep about whether this rules or that sucks anymore.

 

[rbbert]

The Dude ( Gordon) has apparently left the forum, or is no longer posting. Which, IMO is a shame as everyone is entitled to their opinion and whether or not we like it, that's the way it should be.
On public forums, such as this one, there will inevitably be people who you cannot a) agree with and b) rub you the wrong way. That's why I had a flame suit built years ago, LOL. Must say that recently it has gotten a lot of use....maybe time to get a new, stronger version

Back to the discussion on hand, Andre, you say don't read reviews....this from a professional reviewer Probably very good advise, LOL

Were some posts in this thread deleted or edited after the fact? Because I admit to not understanding what it was that led thedude to leave.

 

[rbbert]

Were some posts in this thread deleted or edited after the fact? Because I admit to not understanding what it was that led thedude to leave.

Although mostly I'm on this hobby to collect and listen to music, the sound is pretty important to me. Like a good number of others, I like to try to find gear that sounds a lot better than it should for the price.

 

[treitz3]

Were some posts in this thread deleted or edited after the fact?.

None that I know of. If he left, it is what it is. He is always welcome back.

 

[NorthStar]

What I always find so disappointing is that many people take this all so personally, and what I've seen in about 30 years of doing this is that everyone gets their joy from a different aspect of it. One person loves to hunt down the unobtainable piece of gear or incredible pressing while another is a fanatic for turntable setup, etc etc etc. I've made it a point to try and learn something from each of them, because they all have kernels of knowledge that I don't possess.

For me it's about fun and camaraderie. I've met all of the best friends in my life because of music and hifi. I can have a great time listening to just about anything. I have my preferences, but I can't lose any more sleep about whether this rules or that sucks anymore.

-----Well said! :b

 

[NorthStar]

Tim,

Couldn't agree more.

Unfortunately, some of us forget about why we are in this hobby, which is to enjoy the music.

Gordon

If what you say in your first sentence is true, that is truly unfortunate.

It's like buying a hi end performance sports car and leaving it undriven, in your garage, with the occasional visit to make sure there's no dust on the vehicle.

Why bother?

Tim,

Yes I did. I am literate, despite your comments implying otherwise, and consider myself a reasonably intelligent person.

In my mind, this is a very simple issue.

But then again, I really try to be a pragmatic person and believe many issues are so over analyzed (what's the "correct" way to slice an onion) to cloud pertinent discussion of the basic question.

To reiterate, you spend money on gear to allow you to better connect emotionally with the music. Pretty simple.

Gordon

I'm not hearing anything that is inconsistent with my previous post.

I was trying but apparently failed.

See you all.

Yes PP,

I am gone. Your wishes have been fulfilled.

I will share my thoughts, as to why I've made this decision, with Steve and Amir.

PS: FWIW, I do want to share an experience I had this afternoon.

I live in Jackson, WY aka Jackson Hole, and work for the local County jurisdiction. I principally manage and / or design projects including bike paths, County facilities including the Emergency Operations Center, and the Juvenile Crisis shelter. I was also charged with completing a hi end resort development that went bankrupt, known as the Snake River Sporting Club.

The Board of County Commissioners, my boss, called in $6.1M of Letters of Credit to complete infrastructure improvements necessary to allow folks, who had purchased property, to occupy their residences. Potable water, fire protection, sanitary sewer, emergency access, and all that stuff.

We are very close to finishing (($6,850 left out of the $5.593M left for this portion of the project) but had an issue with an active bald eagles nest. Myself, along with Susan Patla of the Wyoming Game and Fish Dept., observed the nest, and saw three new eaglets. I stopped all construction activity, for four weeks, to ensure that the eaglets would not be impacted by any of our activity.

Amazing how big the size of their beaks are in relation to their size, as viewed through a powerful scope, at three weeks. Think a puppy's paws for a large dog.

Both mom and pop were there, after we arrived, displaying their displeasure at our presence.

What are we threatened by and why is that important?

Long live the King!

None that I know of. If he left, it is what it is. He is always welcome back.
In fact, here he is....^^^

-----Nope.

 

[rbbert]

-----Nope.

well, my bafflement continues. nothing I see there strikes me as leaving-type material, but perhaps others interpret it differently.

 

[NorthStar]

well, my bafflement continues. nothing I see there strikes me as leaving-type material, but perhaps others interpret it differently.

-----No biggie I think. Some people are more sensitive than others; that's what I read.
...Still sad though.

 

[thedudeabides]

Hi Northstar,

Just to clarify why I did what I did.

See Post 35 and 39. 39 was edited by the mod eliminating, if I recall correctly, some additional, cryptic language.

I have had several PM's from individuals who apparently understand my position.

To reiterate what I told Steve and Amir, this really is a great site.

Best,

Gordon

 

[Tonepub]

I guess the question would be, why do you have to get off the bandwagon? Obviously if it's an obsession that is ruining your life, perhaps yes, but why get off the wagon if you're having a good time?

Maybe I was a fox terrier in another life. Even though I'm happy with my system, I'm always intrigued to sniff something else too! That being said, just begun building an alternate vintage-y system built around a pair of Quad 57's. Should be fun!