Which turntable do you prefer and why?

[PeterA]

sorry I am not talking about comparing AS 2000 and 1000 to each other. I am talking about comparing them with the respective tables in that room where the respective AS models did sound better.

i have no doubt your AS sounds better than the MS 8000. That does not in any way invalidate the point I made. In fact for me it is consistent because I do not like the MS 5000 or 8000.

now, if you had 5 TTs you yourself think are good, but you yourself think are less than the AS, and did the compares with 5 different but stellar carts and matching arms, then yes, if you made that call, it would be different from mine.

the SME is a good neutral arm to compare carts but does not get the best out of most carts. If you are a reviewer wanting to write about the general differences between carts, the 3012r is fine

Tang had many arms too. I suspect that most reviewers, but not all, might want the latest and greatest current options and not something cheap and no longer in production. Some even prefer 9 inch to 12 inch.

Some people certainly find owning multiple arms cartridges and tables very enjoyable.

 

[bonzo75]

Tang had many arms too. I suspect that most reviewers, but not all, might want the latest and greatest current options and not something cheap and no longer in production. Some even prefer 9 inch to 12 inch.

Some people certainly find owning multiple arms cartridges and tables very enjoyable.

no one said about latest and greatest or owning multiple arms and carts. I was just talking about to make that assessment you need to know how to maximise the carts, and having just one arm is not the answer (whether that one arm being 3012r makes it worse or not Is a sub argument)

tang did have SAT and axiom but his best cart then was vdh. And the SME was indeed excellent for vdh. And tang had other tables that did some negatives. Also, he had already put his money there before he got into records. And I have heard other analog I prefer to his that is much cheaper

At David’s the impact of the SPU move to Neumann was greater than the table for me

 

[PeterA]

Bonzo, how much of an impact do you think the Lyra atlas and the SAT tonearm have in the sound we are hearing from MF‘s video?

 

[Al M.]

the K3 sounds awfully dry and unemotional, no flow or swing of music or tone compared to the AF3p in that video. I like such videos, would just like it with more music data points of course, just any such thing is welcome.

off to sleep now, will listen again tomorrow morning.

listening today morning, the one negative of Techdas is it adds a bit of homogenising warmth. I still prefer it to the K3 for the reasons mentioned above. On the drums the K3 has more range but sounds stop start like a poor CD player

I watched the video yesterday and I agree with you. When I first watched it I wonder what is MF trying to proove when K3 sounds less resolving, less articulate than AF3P. IMHO the only place K3 wins is the tone of piano but it can be because of many things like cables, recording, pressing, isolation platform etc.

When evaluating turntables it’s better to look for silence, lack of noise, detail, impact and try to understand if the sound is putting it’s feet solidly on the ground and reaching top easily or playing in the middle. IMHO concentrating to the tone is not a good way to evaluate turntables cause tone can easily be changed by tonearm, cartridge, mat, cables, tubes etc. AF3P can have solid metal feet and new silicone damping feet. I heard comparisons of two feet in two different setups. Silicone feet gives a warm sound while metal feet gives more agile sound. I wonder which feet did that AF3P has.

IMHO K3 is not a better turntable than AF3P.

K3 sounds digital.

I agree with all of you, more or less. I think the lack of flow, emotion and articulation of the K3 can be traced to a substantial extent to its presentation of cymbals and drums, at least as captured in the video. Compared to the AF3P it sounds like overbearing, smeared white noise that homogenizes everything in and around it. It really sounds like bad digital. The presentation of the AF3P makes everything sound more distinct, without one thing overriding the other.

 

[PeterA]

So do people notice like I do that there are more of these videos out there from reviewers, industry, and hobbyists alike? Is this a good thing and will the trend continue?
can we learn something from such videos?

I actually expected to hear more resolution and nuance from these highly regarded components, especially considering that they might be direct digital recording out of the phono preamp with no room or rest of the system interference.

 

[bonzo75]

Bonzo, how much of an impact do you think the Lyra atlas and the SAT tonearm have in the sound we are hearing from MF‘s video?

If this is a continuation of our above discussion, it is not relevant. My point is, based on your forum posts, for you the table with the Neumann will sound better than the table with the Lyra, provided both tables are good. If the K3 sounds like it does in that video or like Sp10s, no cart will help.

 

[bonzo75]

So do people notice like I do that there are more of these videos out there from reviewers, industry, and hobbyists alike? Is this a good thing and will the trend continue?
can we learn something from such videos?

Yes definitely. Even Al is learning to assess components accurately on videos. I am going to ride my luck and try to train my cat next.

I actually expected to hear more resolution and nuance from these highly regarded components, especially considering that they might be direct digital recording out of the phono preamp with no room or rest of the system interference.

Fremer's DS audio centering clamp vide (which mtemur has practical experience with) is quite good as well.

 

[PeterA]

If this is a continuation of our above discussion, it is not relevant. My point is, based on your forum posts, for you the table with the Neumann will sound better than the table with the Lyra, provided both tables are good. If the K3 sounds like it does in that video or like Sp10s, no cart will help.

Yes I think we agree about table and cartridges.
moving beyond that and back to the video, we are also hearing the Lyra and the SAT. Based on your experience hearing those in more systems than I have, what is your assessment on their contribution to the sound of the two videos?

I have heard the Lyra atlas in two systems including my own and the SAT tonearm once in New York at Myles‘s. I have my impressions but they are not based on multiple comparisons.

I’m just curious about what you think of those two in combination and what they might be contributing to the sound of the video. I know you have heard the AF3P a number of times also.

 

[bonzo75]

moving beyond that and back to the video, we are also hearing the Lyra and the SAT. Based on your experience hearing those in more systems than I have, what is your assessment on their contribution to the sound of the two videos?

I have heard the Lyra atlas in two systems including my own and the SAT tonearm once in New York at Myles‘s. I have my impressions but they are not based on multiple comparisons.

I have heard the Lyra Atlas lambda with the original SAT through the Ch precision phono. It gives a highly detailed, deep bass, ekes out a lot of groove details, large stage, you hear a lot of information. I heard it next to the Schroeder LT with the same cart and latter had more flow at 1/3rd the price (the new SAT is even more expensive).

I can understand why some people like the SAT and the Lyra combo - it is not my choice however. I do think there is a very good synergy between them.

My initial reaction was to say that SAT, Lyra, CH, and K3 might be too much of the same thing, but then I remembered I heard the same stop start digital dryness through sp10r with OMA platter and Glanz and Dava through Kondo phono, compared to the Dava on Durand Tosca on AF 301 through the Kondo. So I definitely blame the K3 for more for that sound, and what we are hearing from the SAT + Lyra is well reflected in the Af3p sound.

Which reminds me that Fremer had bought the K3 with a Schroder arm, so he should play with that. That will really tell us.

 

[Al M.]

Yes definitely. Even Al is learning to assess components accurately on videos. I am going to ride my luck and try to train my cat next.

LOL

 

[bonzo75]

It's immensely exciting for me as a maker.

As a maker, sure. As a dealer or manufacturer I would want a broader segment. In fact as a dealer I would stock things like dCS and Wilsons.

As an hobbyist I can easily see the patterns between what people chose in their preference, what type of music they listen to, how many concerts they go to, and where they are in their journey. There is no reason for me to be excited about having a broad segment of data points. I would rather have more people my tastes and get more manufacturers and goods produced in what I consider suitable to my tastes, so there is more price competition and option instead of foo fi.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I would rather have more people my tastes and get more manufacturers and goods produced in what I consider suitable to my tastes,

Lol , why would they do that you never buy a system

 

[Lee]

I listened again. The piano is more muted on the TechDAS as are the drums. Seems the K3 has more clarity.

 

[tima]

I actually expected to hear more resolution and nuance from these highly regarded components, especially considering that they might be direct digital recording out of the phono preamp with no room or rest of the system interference.

Yes. I'm of differening thoughts about the approach. I recognize the 'purity' of the comparison with only a single component difference between the two videos and only 'table, arm, cartridge, phonostage and presumably analog-to-digital converter and computer file system involved. Same record.

Yet, there is no room. No sound is recorded. It would be interesting to hear the comparison using an audio system.

 

[ssfas]

Am I the only one that does not get excited by turntables? Bought mine 10 years ago and never considered changing it. Heard others, still no inclination to change. Has two tonearms, made one change in those 10 years. I bought it for manufacturing quality, good measurements, simplicity and lack of bling.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Am I the only one that does not get excited by turntables? Bought mine 10 years ago and never considered changing it. Heard others, still no inclination to change. Has two tonearms, made one change in those 10 years. I bought it for manufacturing quality, good measurements, simplicity and lack of bling.

check your pulse. you might not have one.

kidding. many just have one, or none. for a rainbow of different legit reasons.

i owned 6 turntables 2008-2011, then by 2012 only had one left. until i jumped back into multiple in 2018 again and now have 3.

at this point i greatly enjoy having multiple.....which allows multiple arms carts and phono's too. but maybe in a year i'll only have one.

no rules. but turntable lust is incurable.

 

[ssfas]

check your pulse. you might not have one.

kidding. many just have one, or none. for a rainbow of different legit reasons.

i owned 6 turntables 2008-2011, then by 2012 only had one left. until i jumped back into multiple in 2018 again and now have 3.

at this point i greatly enjoy having multiple.....which allows multiple arms carts and phono's too. but maybe in a year i'll only have one.

no rules. but turntable lust is incurable.

They are bling magnets.

You can pretty much tell which country a turntable came from by the bling factor and characteristics.

If I did go for the bling, it would be a Technics SL-1000R, but I'd have to steal it.

 

[shakti]

great video and discussion, listening to OMA K3 gave me a lot of details and punch, but I missed flow and the „message“ of the music.

Listening to AF3P I could better follow the music, so I would prefer AF3P.

I missed the TechDAS Platterweight (OMA K3 used one) and I would assume, that the AF3P on review had the new Gel feets
by the way,
I prefer my AF3P on an additional active base.

 

[bonzo75]

i owned 6 turntables 2008-2011, then by 2012 only had one left. until i jumped back into multiple in 2018 again and now have 3.

Wonder how you will make up for the lost time between 2011 and 2018

 

[strappoacustico]

I came upon this video in the video thread and find it quite interesting. Michael Fremer directly compares two turntables, one belt drive, the other direct drive. All other variables are fixed. The point of the video is to clearly demonstrate that the two turntables sound different. MF accomplishes this, clearly. I wish he had explained where the mic is located and shown the images from the listening seat.

I think there is something else pretty interesting going on. First, the implication is that we are listening to the two turntables. In reality, we are hearing the two turntables within the context of Fremer's system and room. We are hearing two different presentations of his system in his room. This jazz recording will sound different on these turntables if they are in different systems. Perhaps that is obvious. Regardless, what can we really learn from such a video about the two turntables?

I am interested in learning if readers here have a preference for one table over the other, and if so, what are the reasons. I am also curious if readers think these types of videos can tell us much and if they think reviewers (and dealers) will increasingly use them to increase exposure to products. It seems to me that such system videos are becoming more popular with both hobbyists on forums and also with members of the industry in their digital publications. Is that a good thing?

I came upon this video in the video thread and find it quite interesting. Michael Fremer directly compares two turntables, one belt drive, the other direct drive. All other variables are fixed. The point of the video is to clearly demonstrate that the two turntables sound different. MF accomplishes this, clearly. I wish he had explained where the mic is located and shown the images from the listening seat.

I think there is something else pretty interesting going on. First, the implication is that we are listening to the two turntables. In reality, we are hearing the two turntables within the context of Fremer's system and room. We are hearing two different presentations of his system in his room. This jazz recording will sound different on these turntables if they are in different systems. Perhaps that is obvious. Regardless, what can we really learn from such a video about the two turntables?

I am interested in learning if readers here have a preference for one table over the other, and if so, what are the reasons. I am also curious if readers think these types of videos can tell us much and if they think reviewers (and dealers) will increasingly use them to increase exposure to products. It seems to me that such system videos are becoming more popular with both hobbyists on forums and also with members of the industry in their digital publications. Is that a good thing?

These videos, like others, cannot tell us absolutely anything about their real qualities and characteristics of the devices involved. The reasons are so obvious that listing them would be trivial and tedious.

At most they serve to increase the exposure of the products but above all of those who produce them. There are those who make videos to actually advertise their blog, right down to the simplest and most disinterested hobbyist who seeks, through consensus, a form of gratification for the many sacrifices made.
So if these videos are made as pure advertising or as a form of entertainment, that's fine, but elevating them to tools capable of expressing the playback characteristics of a system is not a good thing.