Which turntable do you prefer and why?

[Amir]

I came upon this video in the video thread and find it quite interesting. Michael Fremer directly compares two turntables, one belt drive, the other direct drive. All other variables are fixed. The point of the video is to clearly demonstrate that the two turntables sound different. MF accomplishes this, clearly. I wish he had explained where the mic is located and shown the images from the listening seat.

I think there is something else pretty interesting going on. First, the implication is that we are listening to the two turntables. In reality, we are hearing the two turntables within the context of Fremer's system and room. We are hearing two different presentations of his system in his room. This jazz recording will sound different on these turntables if they are in different systems. Perhaps that is obvious. Regardless, what can we really learn from such a video about the two turntables?

I am interested in learning if readers here have a preference for one table over the other, and if so, what are the reasons. I am also curious if readers think these types of videos can tell us much and if they think reviewers (and dealers) will increasingly use them to increase exposure to products. It seems to me that such system videos are becoming more popular with both hobbyists on forums and also with members of the industry in their digital publications. Is that a good thing?

I prefer TechDAS AF3 in this video but The question is could K3 give us better sound than AF3 with different cart/arm/... ?


I think the sound of Michael Fremer's System is not good.

No depth, no 3d presence, limited dynamics.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I prefer TechDAS AF3 in this video but The question is could K3 give us better sound than AF3 with different cart/arm/... ?

SAT + Lyra Atlas Lambda SL is a formidable combo. a matter of preference but at top rank for sure. Fremer views it as one of his top choices.

I think the sound of Michael Fremer's System is not good.

pretty sure we are hearing an ADC taken directly fed from the phono pre, not an acoustical mic recording of his system.

 

[PeterA]

The transducers (cartridge and speaker) are the two most dominant signatures in a system.

Perhaps. And then there are those who chose amp first followed by the best sounding speakers the amp can drive. Depending on the system, everything matters and a bad choice anywhere can kill the magic.

 

[ssfas]

Is that an espresso machine behind him?

I was hoping so, because then there would have been one useful thing in the room.

 

[miniguy]

the DS audio will be more responsible for that plastic sound.

Is there a thorens reference in Norway to listen to?

He wasn’t referring to the plastic sound. He was referring to the plastic look.

 

[Al M.]

I mean everyone likes different things but for him to criticize anything about engineering is hilarious. The guy pays people to do everything for him because he doesn’t know anything (designers, craftsmen, engineers).

I guess based on this, OMA is forgettable. Or is it not?

 

[bonzo75]

I guess based on this, OMA is forgettable. Or is it not?

some of his products aesthetically are excellent

 

[Al M.]

some of his products aesthetically are excellent

I guess his horn speakers *sound* good as well?

 

[bazelio]

Perhaps. And then there are those who chose amp first followed by the best sounding speakers the amp can drive. Depending on the system, everything matters and a bad choice anywhere can kill the magic.

You’ve responded to statements or inferences that I didn’t make. Odd.

 

[bazelio]

sorry I am not talking about comparing AS 2000 and 1000 to each other. I am talking about comparing them with the respective tables in that room where the respective AS models did sound better.

i have no doubt your AS sounds better than the MS 8000. That does not in any way invalidate the point I made. In fact for me it is consistent because I do not like the MS 5000 or 8000.

now, if you had 5 TTs you yourself think are good, but you yourself think are less than the AS, and did the compares with 5 different but stellar carts and matching arms, then yes, if you made that call, it would be different from mine.

the SME is a good value neutral arm to compare carts but does not get the best out of most carts. If you are a reviewer wanting to write about the general differences between carts, the 3012r is fine

Do you like the AF3P ? How would you compare it to the Balance? EDIT: Let’s also throw the CS Port in to the mix, if you’ve heard it.

 

[bonzo75]

Do you like the AF3P ? How would you compare it to the Balance? EDIT: Let’s also throw the CS Port in to the mix, if you’ve heard it.

if I had either of those I wouldn’t change for the other, just add a couple of exceptional carts with appropriate pivoted arms on it. My point is that once you reach a stable level of TT, that’s sufficient. You will always get a bit more of this or that by changing tables which you can do forever, does not mean the other table is better.

apart from that, there will be some differing styles of presentation between certain tables and you might prefer one over the other depending on subjective tastes and type of music. For example your stabi M has suspension, the BB doesn’t. Some prefer suspension.


i think BB is more suited to acoustic classical and jazz, AF3 definitely has a bit more pumped up weight that some with more amplified tastes would prefer, though for me personally if I put Dava on either of them it would not matter. Also, I like BB specifically with the Dalby clamp on. doesn’t work on techdas due to the suspension and vacuum. I do see all the ones I kn with AF3 enjoying it a lot due to 4 tonearms though.

Both Jeroen and I preferred the vyger next to the AF3p. The reason I like vyger as a table is the arm is electric, and as an analog system you can’t separate it, so I like the whole table. I can’t say what part the table, vacuum, suspension contribute to the overall experience. I assume with the arm assembly moving sideways the vacuum keeping the LP flat helps


regarding CS port I heard the TAT1 in two systems and TAT2 in one. It is a very good stable table but at Mike’s I preferred the NVS with the FCL to it, the details of the carts are in my report. I have found I prefer LTs in set horns systems, and I haven’t heard the CS in one.

 

[Argonaut]

sorry I am not talking about comparing AS 2000 and 1000 to each other. I am talking about comparing them with the respective tables in that room where the respective AS models did sound better.

i have no doubt your AS sounds better than the MS 8000. That does not in any way invalidate the point I made. In fact for me it is consistent because I do not like the MS 5000 or 8000.

now, if you had 5 TTs you yourself think are good, but you yourself think are less than the AS, and did the compares with 5 different but stellar carts and matching arms, then yes, if you made that call, it would be different from mine.

the SME is a good value neutral arm to compare carts but does not get the best out of most carts. If you are a reviewer wanting to write about the general differences between carts, the 3012r is fine

IIRC , You are not entirely convinced by the AS2000 either , ergo are we not merely reading about opinion based upon ‘best of the rest’ on the day , rather than ‘Best that you have ever heard’. I don’t recognise much value in comparing a vintage turntable that retailed for Sub $5000 in its day to a copy , albe it with revisions , costing considerably more $$$,$$$ recently.

I agree with your general points regarding the SME 3012r .

 

[Lagonda]

if I had either of those I wouldn’t change for the other, just add a couple of exceptional carts with appropriate pivoted arms on it. My point is that once you reach a stable level of TT, that’s sufficient. You will always get a bit more of this or that by changing tables which you can do forever, does not mean the other table is better.

apart from that, there will be some differing styles of presentation between certain tables and you might prefer one over the other depending on subjective tastes and type of music. For example your stabi M has suspension, the BB doesn’t. Some prefer suspension.


i think BB is more suited to acoustic classical and jazz, AF3 definitely has a bit more pumped up weight that some with more amplified tastes would prefer, though for me personally if I put Dava on either of them it would not matter. Also, I like BB specifically with the Dalby clamp on. doesn’t work on techdas due to the suspension and vacuum. I do see all the ones I kn with AF3 enjoying it a lot due to 4 tonearms though.

Both Jeroen and I preferred the vyger next to the AF3p. The reason I like vyger as a table is the arm is electric, and as an analog system you can’t separate it, so I like the whole table. I can’t say what part the table, vacuum, suspension contribute to the overall experience. I assume with the arm assembly moving sideways the vacuum keeping the LP flat helps


regarding CS port I heard the TAT1 in two systems and TAT2 in one. It is a very good stable table but at Mike’s I preferred the NVS with the FCL to it, the details of the carts are in my report. I have found I prefer LTs in set horns systems, and I haven’t heard the CS in one.

Is the air bearing arm on the VYGER electric ?

 

[bonzo75]

Is the air bearing arm on the VYGER electric ?

i meant it like electrifying

 

[Amir]

SAT + Lyra Atlas Lambda SL is a formidable combo. a matter of preference but at top rank for sure. Fremer views it as one of his top choices.

pretty sure we are hearing an ADC taken directly fed from the phono pre, not an acoustical mic recording of his system.

Mike
I know You had many audio equipments in your room and I think you agree me before any judgment/test/review every audio equipment (DUT) should be in it's ideal/match setup to have balance sound. after perfect matching to DUT the speaker position should change in the room. I told before Michael Fremer and most other Reviewers are in wrong direction and all of those judgments are useless. this video clearly shows the MF does not have good setup and the test condition is awful.

if you have time please read my topic here :

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/audio-critique.36512/


Audio Reviewing or any judgment is not simple and Stereophile/TAS/... all are writing useless information.

 

[PeterA]

You’ve responded to statements or inferences that I didn’t make. Odd.

I responded with the word "Perhaps", indicating that I might agree with you about the dominant signatures of speakers and cartridges, but I am not so sure. I once directly compared my entire Pass electronic chain to a Lamm electronic chain and heard a greater difference in my system than with any other single component chain I had experimented with. That experience led me to my comment about some choosing amp first, then speakers. That might indeed seem odd to some.

Anyway, this is about the direct turntable comparison. Some people hear clear differences but still disagree about the character of each table, and others do not seem to hear a difference at all. So it is.

 

[PeterA]

Mike
I know You had many audio equipments in your room and I think you agree me before any judgment/test/review every audio equipment (DUT) should be in it's ideal/match setup to have balance sound. after perfect matching to DUT the speaker position should change in the room. I told before Michael Fremer and most other Reviewers are in wrong direction and all of those judgments are useless. this video clearly shows the MF does not have good setup and the test condition is awful.

if you have time please read my topic here :

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/audio-critique.36512/


Audio Reviewing or any judgment is not simple and Stereophile/TAS/... all are writing useless information.

Amir, could you please explain what you mean by "This video clearly shows the MF does not have good setup and the test condition is awful."? It seems to me that he has isolated the two turntables pretty carefully eliminating most variables. Now, if you are talking about the actual set up of the cartridge and arm, that is something else. Do you not think he adjusted each cartridge to sound its best with each turntable based on listening to the results? Your comment is quite provocative, IMO.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike
I know You had many audio equipments in your room and I think you agree me before any judgment/test/review every audio equipment (DUT) should be in it's ideal/match setup to have balance sound. after perfect matching to DUT the speaker position should change in the room. I told before Michael Fremer and most other Reviewers are in wrong direction and all of those judgments are useless. this video clearly shows the MF does not have good setup and the test condition is awful.

if you have time please read my topic here :

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/audio-critique.36512/


Audio Reviewing or any judgment is not simple and Stereophile/TAS/... all are writing useless information.

not wanting to open that can of worms, i must say i reject your perspective about audio critique; and i did read that thread, but never commented on since i did not agree with it.....and had zero interest in engaging you on the subject. i have much more confidence in my years/decades of reading Mr. Fremer, than your views on this subject.

i do respect that you have your own opinions, and that you have every right to those opinions.

 

[Amir]

Amir, could you please explain what you mean by "This video clearly shows the MF does not have good setup and the test condition is awful."? It seems to me that he has isolated the two turntables pretty carefully eliminating most variables. Now, if you are talking about the actual set up of the cartridge and arm, that is something else. Do you not think he adjusted each cartridge to sound its best with each turntable based on listening to the results? Your comment is quite provocative, IMO.

Peter,

Listen to both sounds in this video, the sound of AF3 is better but it is far from good and the sound of K3 is awful. what i hear shows there are some problems and the sound flow is not correct. the sound of k3 is far from a balance sound. I believe no system should sound like this.

I have said any audio comparison needs:
1- match system to get balance sound
2- properly setup reference system
3- changing speaker position for new DUT

this video clearly shows the bad sound comes from not right condition

 

[Amir]

i must say i reject your perspective about audio critique; and i did read that thread, but never commented on since i did not agree with it

I have described my reasons and I do respect that all have their own opinions.

if WBF is a place for learning please let me know your reasons ?

Thank you in advance