Which turntable do you prefer and why?

[PeterA]

Peter,

Listen to both sounds in this video, the sound of AF3 is better but it is far from good and the sound of K3 is awful. what i hear shows there are some problems and the sound flow is not correct. the sound of k3 is far from a balance sound. I believe no system should sound like this.

I have said any audio comparison needs:
1- match system to get balance sound
2- properly setup reference system
3- changing speaker position for new DUT

this video clearly shows the bad sound comes from not right condition

OK, thank you Amir. I agree the AF3 sounds better. Interesting because the K3 is his reference table. I also agree that neither sounds very good and that there are other videos out there that sound much better. I do not think the rest of his system is a part of the sound of these videos.

I just thought you meant something very specific about the cartridge set up or something else. I agree with you in general terms, and I agree with MF that turntables do not all sound alike. He clearly demonstrated that with this video.

The interesting thing for me about this video is that the opinions differ so greatly. And that many listeners, based on the comment section below the video, seem to think the sound is extremely good. And that is presumably without the speakers, electronics, and room involved effect the sound. In theory, this is a pretty pure way to hear the sound of a vinyl source chain.

 

[bazelio]

I responded with the word "Perhaps", indicating that I might agree with you about the dominant signatures of speakers and cartridges, but I am not so sure. I once directly compared my entire Pass electronic chain to a Lamm electronic chain and heard a greater difference in my system than with any other single component chain I had experimented with. That experience led me to my comment about some choosing amp first, then speakers. That might indeed seem odd to some.

Anyway, this is about the direct turntable comparison. Some people hear clear differences but still disagree about the character of each table, and others do not seem to hear a difference at all. So it is.

My statement had nothing to do with the order in which one builds his or her system.

In your case, the entire system is purpose-built to make the vdh sound palatable - Lamm electronics subdue the screech and provide a warmth and richness that the vdh alone lacks. The speakers, with their large and diffuse sound field, cater to a preference of yours that no other component in the chain can produce on its own. These two components, the cartridge and the speaker, are dominating the end results you achieve. The rest of the chain is filling in gaps and balancing things out. I have no doubt that the table itself is excellent with technicalities.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I have described my reasons and I do respect that all have their own opinions.

thank you.

if WBF is a place for learning please let me know your reasons ?

i don't have a problem with many of the points you make, more the form and religious' righteousness with which you make them. reading reviews should not be a peer review, you take it too seriously. this is fun, and a hobby. this forum is suppose to be pleasurable. yes, we need to look inside reviews and reviewers to see the inner factors, but this is not that difficult as we gain experience as listeners and as review readers. so me trying to ask you to change your style is not something i am interested in doing. i'm just not going there. so on that audio critique thread i just stayed away.

i respect what you are saying; but i accept how Fremer approaches things. and i make my own adjustments to what he says based on my experience doing it up till now. i know his system and understand his writing. and he has earned my respect overall as credible.

Thank you in advance

you are welcome.

 

[Lagonda]

My statement had nothing to do with the order in which one builds his or her system.

In your case, the entire system is purpose-built to make the vdh sound palatable - Lamm electronics subdue the screech and provide a warmth and richness that the vdh alone lacks. The speakers, with their large and diffuse sound field, cater to a preference of yours that no other component in the chain can produce on its own. These two components, the cartridge and the speaker, are dominating the end results you achieve. The rest of the chain is filling in gaps and balancing things out. I have no doubt that the table itself is excellent with technicalities.

You had a bad sample of VDH, or a arm that did not work well, and are making assumptions based on that. I have SS phono and SS amps, the Grand Cru sounds fantastic, extended but also sweet, great midrange and bass when present on recordings.

 

[bazelio]

You had a bad sample of VDH, or a arm that did not work well, and are making assumptions based on that. I have SS phono and SS amps, the Grand Cru sounds fantastic, extended but also sweet, great midrange and bass when present on recordings.

I've heard enough of the top end VDHs other than my own. David Karmelli will also be the first to tell you that it's a treble-energetic and relatively thin sounding cart. This mirrors my experiences. But it can be made to work. Tang's videos with the Cessaros were an example of how it phenomenal it can sound. Whether you agree or disagree with these takes on the VDH doesn't change the notion that the system is purpose built around it, though.

 

[PeterA]

My statement had nothing to do with the order in which one builds his or her system.

In your case, the entire system is purpose-built to make the vdh sound palatable - Lamm electronics subdue the screech and provide a warmth and richness that the vdh alone lacks. The speakers, with their large and diffuse sound field, cater to a preference of yours that no other component in the chain can produce on its own. These two components, the cartridge and the speaker, are dominating the end results you achieve. The rest of the chain is filling in gaps and balancing things out. I have no doubt that the table itself is excellent with technicalities.

your statement had to do with the prominence of sonic signatures with speakers and cartridges. I said perhaps I agree with that but in my experience there might be some exceptions. That led to my comment that some people choose the amplifier before the speakers. In reality people choose them together in many cases.

that electronic chain comparison was in my old magico system and I had three listeners on three different occasions all agree about the impact of the electronic chain being greater than cartridge swaps between different cartridges.

I actually preferred the sound of Colibrí in my old system to my new system and now listen mostly to vintage cartridges in my new system so it has nothing to do with the Colibrí.

I will simply respectfully disagree with your comments based on my own personal experience. I understand you have different opinions and I respect that.

There are all sorts of interesting side discussions on this thread.

 

[bazelio]

This is why I’m interested in a table that allows for multiple arms. Not because I feel my table to be lacking; it’s excellent. But multiple arms allows for multiple carts. And nothing aside from speakers influences the overall end result like cartridges. Vyger with Red Sparrow might be heavenly and at the very top of my list but there again, I’m limited. Changing cartridges back and forth on a single arm isn’t my cup of tea.

 

[bonzo75]

This is why I’m interested in a table that allows for multiple arms. Not because I feel my table to be lacking; it’s excellent. But multiple arms allows for multiple carts. And nothing aside from speakers influences the overall end result like cartridges. Vyger with Red Sparrow might be heavenly and at the very top of my list but there again, I’m limited. Changing cartridges back and forth on a single arm isn’t my cup of tea.

Vyger let’s you add a pivot. You will see that byrdparis has the Sikora too additionally on it and one I heard also had the Da Vinci. You can get a second LT too.

 

[bazelio]

Vyger let’s you add a pivot. You will see that byrdparis has the Sikora too additionally on it and one I heard also had the Da Vinci. You can get a second LT too.

On the Atlantis or the big floor standing one?

 

[bazelio]

I guess with Vyger, there’s also the issue of (un)reliability too.

 

[bonzo75]

On the Atlantis or the big floor standing one?

You can do on both. Ask bjornosten for details.

either way, those who have budget to have 4 high end arms and carts on those arms have the budget for two tables at least, and if I was to have 4 arms, linear trackers including pivoted LTs will be part of it.

Jeroen has vyger Atlantis, has added a board for it for ikeda to run Dava, has AF3P with 4 arms, and Dohmann.

 

[Argonaut]

I don’t recognise much value in comparing a vintage turntable that retailed for Sub $5000 in its day to a copy , albe it with revisions , costing considerably more $$$,$$$ recently.

Perhaps I really should quantify that I am refering to the original AS1000 and not the MS 5k or 8K here .

 

[PeterA]

I don’t recognise much value in comparing a vintage turntable that retailed for Sub $5000 in its day to a copy , albe it with revisions , costing considerably more $$$,$$$ recently.

Perhaps I really should quantify that I am refering to the original AS1000 and not the MS 5k or 8K here .

I have tried to learn more about the original AS 1000, how much it cost, how many were made, and where one could buy it. I don’t even think people know who the original designer is.

do you know the answers to any of those questions? Can you post a link or refer me to where I can find more information about this turntable? Have you yourself ever heard it?

I did live with it for a month in my own system. It was Vladimir Lamm‘s reference for years. There are quite a few reports on WBF of people who heard it and directly compared it to DDK’s‘s other superb turntables. They seemed to all prefer the American Sound to the other turntables they heard.

I directly compared it to the new AS 2000 in my own system. I know of only three people who have ever compared the two turntables in the same system.

I respect that you don’t see much value in such a comparison, but I learned a lot from assembling and setting up each turntable and from extensive listening comparisons. I was offered either one, and I made my choice. I understand that you don’t really care, but I’m very curious to know what the original retail price was in 1970. I know a little bit about what it takes to manufacture or something like that today having spoken extensively to the designer and having had a factory tour where it was made.

 

[KeithR]

This is why I’m interested in a table that allows for multiple arms. Not because I feel my table to be lacking; it’s excellent. But multiple arms allows for multiple carts. And nothing aside from speakers influences the overall end result like cartridges. Vyger with Red Sparrow might be heavenly and at the very top of my list but there again, I’m limited. Changing cartridges back and forth on a single arm isn’t my cup of tea.

What about just getting an arm with a head shell?

 

[Dogberry]

I think the thing that strikes me is that the first table sounds what I would call "showy" - a definite emphasis of detail at the expense of musicality. Hearing the second straight after it you initially feel it is muddy or unclear, but not for long: it has music rather than just sounds. I can see the first table grabbing attention and making people buy, but I don't think it will satisfy for as long as the second.

Chris

 

[Rexp]

This isn't a great recording and Youtube won't reveal the important details like how engaging these turntables are, so best not to draw too many conclusions.

 

[tima]

In your case, the entire system is purpose-built to make the vdh sound palatable - Lamm electronics subdue the screech and provide a warmth and richness that the vdh alone lacks. The speakers, with their large and diffuse sound field, cater to a preference of yours that no other component in the chain can produce on its own. These two components, the cartridge and the speaker, are dominating the end results you achieve. The rest of the chain is filling in gaps and balancing things out. I have no doubt that the table itself is excellent with technicalities.

I've never understood the intent of these type of posts.

 

[bazelio]

What about just getting an arm with a head shell?

Yeah, I have that with the Kuzma arm. Multiple carts pre-aligned on the Kuzma head shells. But it’s surprisingly time consuming still. I’m never really going to swap out head shells for just one record and then swap back, for example. If I’m going to swap, it’ll be for the duration of a listening session.

 

[Dogberry]

This isn't a great recording and Youtube won't reveal the important details like how engaging these turntables are, so best not to draw too many conclusions.

That was my thought, but there is a clear difference between the tables despite whatever degradation is applied by YouTube. Perhaps I have been wrong to ignore all those comparison videos on YT? I doubt it, I expect that one was made with a lot more care than most creators use.
Chris

 

[Argonaut]

Vyger lets you add a pivot. You will see that byrdparis has the Sikora too additionally on it and one I heard also had the Da Vinci. You can get a second LT too.

It might appear obvious, but for the sake of clarity, any additional tonearm needs to be specified at time of order / manufacture , otherwise a retro fit will require shipping the main body of the Indian / Atlantic back to the manufacturer.