Which turntable do you prefer and why?

[Lagonda]

Interesting discussion.

As a student I worked in a High End shop and my boss had a light bulb over the turntable, giving some heat to the cart if in rest position. At th beginning of my job there, I moved the bulb to have better light over the record, but my box explained, that he likes to have the cart always as 23degree celsius to get the best performance , so he adjusted the light bulb accordingly.

This is now nearly 4 decades gone..., and all the carts in use were new shop demoes, so no old rubber parts at all.

I learned there something else: Whenever I prepared a Demo, my boss asked, if a phono stage with step up is in the chain,
if yes, he recommends to have one side of a record played before the Demo "to wake up the step up" , even if the step up is well burned in, some minutes playing would stabilize / revitalize the magnetic field.

May be the step up story explains, why some hear a difference in warming up, some not. May be it is not only the warming up of the cart, but also the step up effect. Some of us do use step ups, external or internal, some have solid state phono stage only.

Jürgen, do you hear a difference ?

 

[DasguteOhr]

Interesting discussion.

As a student I worked in a High End shop and my boss had a light bulb over the turntable, giving some heat to the cart if in rest position. At th beginning of my job there, I moved the bulb to have better light over the record, but my box explained, that he likes to have the cart always as 23degree celsius to get the best performance , so he adjusted the light bulb accordingly.

This is now nearly 4 decades gone..., and all the carts in use were new shop demoes, so no old rubber parts at all.

I learned there something else: Whenever I prepared a Demo, my boss asked, if a phono stage with step up is in the chain,
if yes, he recommends to have one side of a record played before the Demo "to wake up the step up" , even if the step up is well burned in, some minutes playing would stabilize / revitalize the magnetic field.

May be the step up story explains, why some hear a difference in warming up, some not. May be it is not only the warming up of the cart, but also the step up effect. Some of us do use step ups, external or internal, some have solid state phono stage only.

There was a Denon advertisement in an old hifi magazine. There they wrote that they had found a new material that was hardly independent of temperature. Since then, all Denon cartriges have been measured at 20 degrees celisus and no longer at 23 degrees.

 

[Lagonda]

I have both direct to SS and to tube and trough step-up, the one trough step-up takes the longest to sound "Right" !

 

[bazelio]

Back To The Future underscored the necessity for the flux capacitor to harness a specific 1.21 gigawatts to initiate its time-travel sequence. And ever since the film's ground breaking work came to light, scholars have suggested that transformers might be interfacing with an analogous energy continuum leading to theories of an initial "wake-up" phase whereby the magnetic flux is allowed to achieve equilibrium. The phenomenon bears a striking resemblance to the operational principles of the flux capacitor, and absolutely may explain what we're hearing.

 

[Another Johnson]

When I had a cartridge with a questionable suspension mounted, it did tend to settle in about half way through the first side, as the fellow from Soundsmith suggested.

With cartridges that are not suspected to be suspension compromised, once the phono preamp is warmed up, I’m off to the races. The three I presently have mounted (a Shure spherical for 78s, a Lyra Kleos, and a Lyra Etna Lambda), they all seem ready to work well when the phono preamp is ready to work.

My room is at 72 F. That’s about 22 C last time I checked.

 

[Zeotrope]

I came upon this video in the video thread and find it quite interesting. Michael Fremer directly compares two turntables, one belt drive, the other direct drive. All other variables are fixed. The point of the video is to clearly demonstrate that the two turntables sound different. MF accomplishes this, clearly. I wish he had explained where the mic is located and shown the images from the listening seat.

I think there is something else pretty interesting going on. First, the implication is that we are listening to the two turntables. In reality, we are hearing the two turntables within the context of Fremer's system and room. We are hearing two different presentations of his system in his room. This jazz recording will sound different on these turntables if they are in different systems. Perhaps that is obvious. Regardless, what can we really learn from such a video about the two turntables?

I am interested in learning if readers here have a preference for one table over the other, and if so, what are the reasons. I am also curious if readers think these types of videos can tell us much and if they think reviewers (and dealers) will increasingly use them to increase exposure to products. It seems to me that such system videos are becoming more popular with both hobbyists on forums and also with members of the industry in their digital publications. Is that a good thing?

Interesting video and post, thanks Peter.

First off, the AF3 is like 1/10th the cost of the K3, so it’s not a fair comparison. Fremer should have put the K3 against the AF0/AF1, Nagra, or SAT or Thorens tables.

One of the reasons I personally went with the Nagra is because it’s a hybrid drive, with elements of both direct and belt. This tensioned belt system is not a new design; but Nagra has modernized it and borrowed from their R2R expertise (which has more in common with a TT then you might think!). [More info on this here: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...e-tonearm-record-playback-system.33936/page-3]

I wish Nagra would publish more details about the innovations in their TT; but Nagra does not pay for reviews [unlike OMA giving Fremer a K3 for a significant discount - <cough> <cough>] so there won’t be any “Stereophile” reviews of the Nagra TT. Although Fremer was invited to the Nagra booth in Munich several times and told me he was very impressed with it.

 

[PeterA]

Interesting video and post, thanks Peter.

First off, the AF3 is like 1/10th the cost of the K3, so it’s not a fair comparison. Fremer should have put the K3 against the AF0/AF1, Nagra, or SAT or Thorens tables.

You are welcome Zeotrope. I found the video quite interesting. The fascinating thing is that a lot of people actually preferred the sound of the much less expensive AF3 to the K3. Some even prefer the sound of the AF3 to the AF1. Do not forget the new Esoteric turntable, the new SME, the Acoustical Systems and Acoustic Sounds. These are also supposed to be good. I respect and appreciate Fremer for actually doing these direct video comparisons of turntables that most people will not hear. There are a lot of expensive turntables out there. I am glad you like your Nagra. I know little about it.

 

[Lee]

Interesting discussion.

As a student I worked in a High End shop and my boss had a light bulb over the turntable, giving some heat to the cart if in rest position. At th beginning of my job there, I moved the bulb to have better light over the record, but my box explained, that he likes to have the cart always as 23degree celsius to get the best performance , so he adjusted the light bulb accordingly.

This is now nearly 4 decades gone..., and all the carts in use were new shop demoes, so no old rubber parts at all.

I learned there something else: Whenever I prepared a Demo, my boss asked, if a phono stage with step up is in the chain,
if yes, he recommends to have one side of a record played before the Demo "to wake up the step up" , even if the step up is well burned in, some minutes playing would stabilize / revitalize the magnetic field.

May be the step up story explains, why some hear a difference in warming up, some not. May be it is not only the warming up of the cart, but also the step up effect. Some of us do use step ups, external or internal, some have solid state phono stage only.

I fear this discussion may lead some enterprising manufacturer to build a "cartridge warmer" the you drop the tonearm into for $20,000. Of course, it will make a difference so we will all be forced by our peers to buy it.

And I really don't have the $20K now.

Lol.

 

[Lee]

Of course, the smarter play might be to wait on Marc Gomez to bring the SAT $40,000 cartridge warmer in titanium which applies the heat more evenly for even better sound quality.

I wouldn't want anyone to miss that opportunity.

 

[Zeotrope]

I think the AF3 sounded better: more “musical” with better high frequency extension. The K3 had better low end.
I wonder how much better the AF3 would have sounded with a record weight!

 

[jeromelang]

I would welcome more of such similar videos in the future, if the music playback recording is taken from an ADC off the phono stage output, and then inserted into the video through some editing process. The room effects would've been minimised(or eradicated), so what viewers hear will just be summation of the cartridge/tonearm/turntable/phono cable/phonostage > ADC/editing/YouTube compression algorithm, and nothing else downstream in the content producer's system, desirably, none of the amps/spealers/room interactions.

However I hope future producers of such videos would take into account the not insignificant change in sound that can arise from playing the same portion of the vinyl grooves consecutively within a short period of time.

 

[mtemur]

I wonder how much better the AF3 would have sounded with a record weight

Just a little.

 

[PHAA_]

I came upon this video in the video thread and find it quite interesting. Michael Fremer directly compares two turntables, one belt drive, the other direct drive. All other variables are fixed. The point of the video is to clearly demonstrate that the two turntables sound different. MF accomplishes this, clearly. I wish he had explained where the mic is located and shown the images from the listening seat.

I think there is something else pretty interesting going on. First, the implication is that we are listening to the two turntables. In reality, we are hearing the two turntables within the context of Fremer's system and room. We are hearing two different presentations of his system in his room. This jazz recording will sound different on these turntables if they are in different systems. Perhaps that is obvious. Regardless, what can we really learn from such a video about the two turntables?

I am interested in learning if readers here have a preference for one table over the other, and if so, what are the reasons. I am also curious if readers think these types of videos can tell us much and if they think reviewers (and dealers) will increasingly use them to increase exposure to products. It seems to me that such system videos are becoming more popular with both hobbyists on forums and also with members of the industry in their digital publications. Is that a good thing?

Nice. I viewed that Fremer video before coming across this thread.

Sometimes realism is not what is preferred and that is fair. In the case of my daughter belting, my wife's trumpet or my Marshall stacks, I would venture to say most people who say they want that experience in their listening room would change their mind rather quickly after a few blasted high notes from my daughter's highest octave or wife's horn and/or 8 x 12" speakers squealing out pinch harmonics and feedback from a cranked 4 x EL34 100W head that literally makes your clothes flap as if the wind was blowing. I know I don't want that. That's why I sit in the control room. Nevertheless, I do want the recording to give me every possible indication, leaving little doubt, that I'm hearing, say a piccolo snare rather than that monstrous snare Sarah Thawer has (masterfully and inventively) used in some of her videos. That is to say, I want to hear everything the medium from the master tape has to offer. If it's an "honest" recording (ie. with "acoustical" content, not an "electronic montage" where there was no real physical instrument as a point of reference to begin with) my reference point is my experience, live in person playing or listening as someone else played the actual instrument(s) in the rehearsal hall, on stage, in the studio, even in the bedroom. To which, the question for me is which setup makes my brain question less what I am hearing? I don't know if any of this makes sense. My intention is not to assault anyone's sensibilities, just to explain why more gear that is often categorized as "detail oriented" or "analytical" perhaps even "dry" typically wins for me.

Now, in the case of these two tables as presented in this video (that's important), I prefer the K3. One commentor mentioned the percussion sounded more "realistic". I share that opinion.

Caveat, I would give neither table back if they suddenly appeared atop my racks, not a chance.

 

[JackD201]

Mikey just dropped a new OMA - AF3P vid today or yesterday wherever you are in the word LOL

I like Idlers and DDs however I typically like them best with carts like SPUs and arms like the vintage SMEs, FRs and my fave EMT "banana".

For this video in particular the OMA was too transient focused, the snares and high hats made to sound "one note". This is not the case with arms and carts I mentioned above. So no knock on the OMA and other DDs. The AFP3 and 3S are indeed the sweet spot in that is has more of the traditional warmth built in. The AF1 in contrast I find the most balanced (have not experienced the Zero). Some people however have said that the AF1 is too dry for them because they are too quiet.

I could live with an AF3P even if I am an AF1 owner. I could live with the OMA too but it would have to be in a totally different system with different performance goals.

I would say the AF1 might be somewhere in between the two in the percussion department.

 

[Lee]

Mikey just dropped a new OMA - AF3P vid today or yesterday wherever you are in the word LOL

I like Idlers and DDs however I typically like them best with carts like SPUs and arms like the vintage SMEs, FRs and my fave EMT "banana".

For this video in particular the OMA was too transient focused, the snares and high hats made to sound "one note". This is not the case with arms and carts I mentioned above. So no knock on the OMA and other DDs. The AFP3 and 3S are indeed the sweet spot in that is has more of the traditional warmth built in. The AF1 in contrast I find the most balanced (have not experienced the Zero). Some people however have said that the AF1 is too dry for them because they are too quiet.

I could live with an AF3P even if I am an AF1 owner. I could live with the OMA too but it would have to be in a totally different system with different performance goals.

I would say the AF1 might be somewhere in between the two in the percussion department.

The AF3PS is a phenomenal table and I almost bought one. In fact, the original plan for Fremer's latest video was that I would buy one from Maier, I would buy the Kuzma tonearm from Scot Markwell, Maier would install both, then Fremer would visit my house, and I would film the whole thing for the TAS YouTube channel. But my leaving TAS essentially put an end to that.

That said, the OMA table sounds better here imho.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

watched that video yesterday, then played that same cut on the Esoteric T1 w/clock (with Primary Control FCL arm/Etsuro Gold cart) and found it to be similar to the K3 in terms of finer detail and micro-dynamics, but also have a bit more meat on the bones. if I had to choose my preference was the K3 video over the AF3PS video. hard to comment on the bass performance from a YouTube video. it was superb in person. this is a cut I have played quite a bit in my system.

while I appreciated both presentations in the video, neither hit it quite right to my ears. both missing important musical attributes. but in person likely I would have liked both but overall preferred the K3.

these type compare videos raise more questions, than offer answers. you are looking for realism; videos fall short of relating that part. just gets you to think about it. Mikey's point about them sounding different certainly was made. I'd bet in person the distinction between the two was even more dramatic.

 

[tima]

Some people however have said that the AF1 is too dry for them because they are too quiet.

I like that 'dry' -- 'quiet' correlation.

 

[AudioHR]

Nice. I viewed that Fremer video before coming across this thread.

Sometimes realism is not what is preferred and that is fair. In the case of my daughter belting, my wife's trumpet or my Marshall stacks, I would venture to say most people who say they want that experience in their listening room would change their mind rather quickly after a few blasted high notes from my daughter's highest octave or wife's horn and/or 8 x 12" speakers squealing out pinch harmonics and feedback from a cranked 4 x EL34 100W head that literally makes your clothes flap as if the wind was blowing. I know I don't want that. That's why I sit in the control room. Nevertheless, I do want the recording to give me every possible indication, leaving little doubt, that I'm hearing, say a piccolo snare rather than that monstrous snare Sarah Thawer has (masterfully and inventively) used in some of her videos. That is to say, I want to hear everything the medium from the master tape has to offer. If it's an "honest" recording (ie. with "acoustical" content, not an "electronic montage" where there was no real physical instrument as a point of reference to begin with) my reference point is my experience, live in person playing or listening as someone else played the actual instrument(s) in the rehearsal hall, on stage, in the studio, even in the bedroom. To which, the question for me is which setup makes my brain question less what I am hearing? I don't know if any of this makes sense. My intention is not to assault anyone's sensibilities, just to explain why more gear that is often categorized as "detail oriented" or "analytical" perhaps even "dry" typically wins for me.

Now, in the case of these two tables as presented in this video (that's important), I prefer the K3. One commentor mentioned the percussion sounded more "realistic". I share that opinion.

Caveat, I would give neither table back if they suddenly appeared atop my racks, not a chance.

I enjoyed your comments! Although I would say dry and analytical systems doesn't win for me. Honestly I thought you were going in a different direction on your post until the end.

In the search for the best and most technically correct sound I have to think that many manufacturers have missed the point or possibly overshot the mark. I am not sure that we would agree on what sounds best but I liked the way you expressed your opinion.

 

[PHAA_]

I enjoyed your comments! Although I would say dry and analytical systems doesn't win for me. Honestly I thought you were going in a different direction on your post until the end.

In the search for the best and most technically correct sound I have to think that many manufacturers have missed the point or possibly overshot the mark. I am not sure that we would agree on what sounds best but I liked the way you expressed your opinion.

It is an understatement to say it is difficult to put in words what we hear, more so how we each individually hear. I appreciate your response.

In thinking about it more (take the case of DSOTM), should we be all that concerned with how each instrument sounded in the studio booth/room? Is that what we want to hear or do we really want to hear the tapestry, the finished artwork (known as the master tape) as the artist(s) intended us to hear it? I guess this is that conundrum that all of us "audiophiles" face. Regardless of gear, with rare exception, I dare say few people truly want "real" in their listening room, believable but perhaps not "real". As mentioned, if so they should go stand right in front of the stage, in front of Jimmy Herring's amps without ear plugs or stand next to the guy with the cymbals in an orchestra for an hour, then let's talk about it. I'll settle for "believable" because "real" could literally cost me my hearing, but I do indeed prefer "believable". In some ways it's an unattainable pursuit. Yet, we do it anyway!

All this and more is why "normal" people think we're crazy.

 

[djsina2]

K3 cartridge is being bombarded by ions but the AF3P is not?