Which turntable do you prefer and why?

[bazelio]

Sorry, you only get the "Angel" part when you play Emmylou Harris with a VDH cartridge, and sometimes the sibilants makes her sound like she is lisping !

Haha. I don't know. Listening sessions always get more engaging as they progress but I haven't ever attributed this to a cartridge warm up phenomenon. If that's really a thing, then it must be dependent on suspension type including elastomers etc.

 

[djsina2]

Haha. I don't know. Listening sessions always get more engaging as they progress but I haven't ever attributed this to a cartridge warm up phenomenon. If that's really a thing, then it must be dependent on suspension type including elastomers etc.

We need an A/B using one of those stylus warmer devices so the rest of the system has the same uptime during the compare.

 

[bazelio]

We need an A/B using one of those stylus warmer devices so the rest of the system has the same uptime during the compare.

Egggsactly. I have an inquiry out to my Soundsmith cartridge engineer friend on this "warmup" concept. I'm interested in his take.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i have no objective way to know, but anecdotally......in my almost daily rotation of 4 or 5 stereo cartridges a side at a time, i find it requires about half a side (7-10 minutes) for a cartridge to be optimal, then in an approx. 90 minute typical rotation sequence i don't hear any fall off of optimization. been doing this for 2-3 months 3-4 times a week. so enough time for a feeling about it, but nothing scientific.

the turntables and phono's have been on for 30+ minutes too, and i play the CS Port last so it gets into it's thermal stable mode. it's fine and perfectly listenable after 10 minutes but much better after an hour, fully stable at 90 minutes.

based on my long term feel for this cartridge warmed up status question, my SWAG is around 3-4 hours until it loses it's mojo and needs reawakening. but for sure at 2 hours should still be just fine. are there degrees of this? might it vary from cartridge to cartridge and maybe even ambient temp?..........or 33 verses 45 rpm? i suppose they all could be factors. i'm mostly a 33 rpm listener these days.

 

[PeterA]

the turntables and phono's have been on for 30+ minutes too, and i play the CS Port last so it gets into it's thermal stable mode. it's fine and perfectly listenable after 10 minutes but much better after an hour, fully stable at 90 minutes.

Mike, what do you mean by “thermal stable mode”?

 

[djsina2]

Mike, what do you mean by “thermal stable mode”?

My CSPort takes quite a while to ramp up the speed and stabilize. I assume that’s what Mike means. I start mine spinning 15 min before I listen.

 

[bazelio]

My CSPort takes quite a while to ramp up the speed and stabilize. I assume that’s what Mike means. I start mine spinning 15 min before I listen.

Yeah and tbh I attributed initial progression of sound to bearing oil as a possible culprit. I have a thing with (not) leaving the platter spinning continuously as I don't love adding or removing a record from a spinning platter. The Brinkman has a bearing heater presumably to keep the oil at a constant viscosity -- "thermal stable mode"(?) But anyhow, maybe cartridge suspension "warm up" is in fact another factor. Still awaiting input from Soundsmith.

 

[Lagonda]

Yeah and tbh I attributed initial progression of sound to bearing oil as a possible culprit. I have a thing with (not) leaving the platter spinning continuously as I don't love adding or removing a record from a spinning platter. The Brinkman has a bearing heater presumably to keep the oil at a constant viscosity -- "thermal stable mode"(?) But anyhow, maybe cartridge suspension "warm up" is in fact another factor. Still awaiting input from Soundsmith.

No oil in my TT bearing, and i think CSPort is the same. But air pressure stabilizing, motor and power supply component heating up, are definitely culprits eliminated by constant spinning for an hour advanced to playback. The cartridge warmup is a separat factor easily heard when a separate arm is taken into use during alternating playback.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, what do you mean by “thermal stable mode”?

My CSPort takes quite a while to ramp up the speed and stabilize. I assume that’s what Mike means. I start mine spinning 15 min before I listen.

correct. initially the ramp up to speed is since there is no servo. but also it's designed to be spinning all day continuously. so the ideal constant speed is based on the motor reaching thermal stabilization which is at about 90 minutes. you could adjust the speed with the strobe at any time, but the idea is that it is adjusted for extended listening so with that particular adjustment setting it takes approx 90 minutes to get there.

if i only had the CS Port i would listen immediately. it still sounds fine, but 10-15 minutes in it's much better. many times if i know i will be spinning vinyl eventually i will fire up the CS Port when i enter the room. sounds like a big deal, it's not. the big deal is listening to it.

the company CS Port use to have verbiage on their web site referring to the thermal stabilization. it is no longer there, for whatever reason.

i always first turn on the chassis which engages the air compressor and lifts the platter on a film of air. then i gently start the platter spinning and then press 'start' and the motor starts (you can hear it spinning) and then the light comes on when motor and thread drive sync, and you can no longer hear it.

 

[PeterA]

correct. initially the ramp up to speed is since there is no servo. but also it's designed to be spinning all day continuously. so the ideal constant speed is based on the motor reaching thermal stabilization which is at about 90 minutes. you could adjust the speed with the strobe at any time, but the idea is that it is adjusted for extended listening so with that particular adjustment setting it takes approx 90 minutes to get there.

if i only had the CS Port i would listen immediately. it still sounds fine, but 10-15 minutes in it's much better. many times if i know i will be spinning vinyl eventually i will fire up the CS Port when i enter the room. sounds like a big deal, it's not. the big deal is listening to it.

the company CS Port use to have verbiage on their web site referring to the thermal stabilization. it is no longer there, for whatever reason.

Thank you Mike. I was just curious about what you meant. Is it motor bearing or platter bearing or both? There is one of my turntables that’s been spinning for five years. There is no bearing oil in my table so nothing to warm up and the motor seems stable once up to speed.

 

[djsina2]

correct. initially the ramp up to speed is since there is no servo. but also it's designed to be spinning all day continuously. so the ideal constant speed is based on the motor reaching thermal stabilization which is at about 90 minutes. you could adjust the speed with the strobe at any time, but the idea is that it is adjusted for extended listening so with that particular adjustment setting it takes approx 90 minutes to get there.

if i only had the CS Port i would listen immediately. it still sounds fine, but 10-15 minutes in it's much better. many times if i know i will be spinning vinyl eventually i will fire up the CS Port when i enter the room. sounds like a big deal, it's not. the big deal is listening to it.

the company CS Port use to have verbiage on their web site referring to the thermal stabilization. it is no longer there, for whatever reason.

i always first turn on the chassis which engages the air compressor and lifts the platter on a film of air. then i gently start the platter spinning and then press 'start' and the motor starts (you can hear it spinning) and then the light comes on when motor and thread drive sync, and you can no longer hear it.

I’ve also seem to find that just turning it on to engage the pump and letting it sit like this before spinning will get things to stabilize the strobe quicker when you do start the spin. Maybe it’s coincidence and more to do with utility voltage fluctuations, not sure. I know I’ve left it in this state for hours and then see it stabilize very quickly when the motor starts.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Haha. I don't know. Listening sessions always get more engaging as they progress but I haven't ever attributed this to a cartridge warm up phenomenon. If that's really a thing, then it must be dependent on suspension type including elastomers etc.

In the past, every measuring record for cartridge stated the room temperature in order to achieve the optimal frequency response and scanning ability. If your room is too cold, you will only each these values after a long time. They say 22 to 23 degrees Celsius is optimal

 

[DDgtt]

I don't know if you've had the opportunity to hear a Kronos turntable yet, if not it should be at the top of your list. What the counter-rotating secondary platter concept does to extract more information and beauty out of the grooves can't be underestimated. This, along with the other technologies they incorporate make Kronos a truly special, next level product!

 

[bazelio]

My friend who is an engineer at Soundsmith says the following:

Q: What do you say about the notion of "cartridge warm up"? The idea that after an initial "warm up period" of perhaps a record side or two, the sound of the cartridge may open up, or become more dynamic, or audibly change in other ways?

A: Well, if the suspension is compromised, then that makes sense. But if it's a new cartridge then that's a load of crap.

 

[Lagonda]

My friend who is an engineer at Soundsmith says the following:

Q: What do you say about the notion of "cartridge warm up"? The idea that after an initial "warm up period" of perhaps a record side or two, the sound of the cartridge may open up, or become more dynamic, or audibly change in other ways?

A: Well, if the suspension is compromised, then that makes sense. But if it's a new cartridge then that's a load of crap.

So much for the ears of the engineer of Soundsmith !

 

[bazelio]

So much for the ears of the engineer of Soundsmith !

Or for the theory that it's a cartridge phenomenon vs something else.

 

[Lagonda]

Or for the theory that it's a cartridge phenomenon vs something else.

If i leave both arms running with the needle in the groove, the cartridge not playing actively gets warmed up, so i doubt it being a electronics issue. But if you cannot hear a difference anyway, it is a non issue for you.

 

[Another Johnson]

I listened to the MF video in the OP today. My ears are closer to @Lee than to many of the others. I hear the K3 as the more realistic rendition, especially on the percussive material. Lee and I have both had involvement in recording live music, and that may be why I often agree with his assessments.

As I understand MF’s comments in some of his other videos, he prefers the K3 too.

To my ears, it sounds like the second TT setup may have slightly different SRA and VTF compared to the first. But it could also be that the second TT is not as well isolated from vibrations in the room. The second TT is not as clear, and the location can cause this difference, even for two otherwise identical specimens. Detail is buried… lost no matter how good the cartridge and setup are.

Two TTs will nearly always sound different. I don’t know where the idea that they’re all the same would come from. It’s never been true.

Although I don’t put much stock in evaluating things based on recordings played back via YouTube, in this case my big takeaway is that both of MF’s TTs sound mediocre in this video.

The good result for me has been that it led to a vinyl fest of Kenny Burrell albums here today. Great toe tapping fun. I went toward Kenny because The Great Jazz Trio was a long running act with mixed personnel over many decades, and while good, I would not consider TGJT as among the greats. I have some of their albums, but they’re not on my “must play” list.

Kenny”s first released album as leader on Blue Note was cut in 1956 and it includes one of the best percussive combos ever recorded in Kenny Clarke and Candido. If I want to evaluate percussion, I often go to this album. So that was first up.

The other participants were Kenny, Tommy Flanagan on piano, and Paul Chambers on bass. It was recorded at Rudy Van Gelder’s. I have a copy autographed by KB himself.

One thing led to another, and before long, I’d enjoyed many KB sides. And I was thoroughly immersed in the bliss that a great jazz vinyl session can bring. At last count I had at least 80 of Kenny’s albums as either leader or sideman on my shelves. He’s long been a favorite.

 

[bazelio]

If i leave both arms running with the needle in the groove, the cartridge not playing actively gets warmed up, so i doubt it being a electronics issue. But if you cannot hear a difference anyway, it is a non issue for you.

What I hear is more gradual than one side of a record and I've never heard cartridge warmup discussed before now. Odd that it seems to defy explanation - even by an engineer who has constructed, tested, repaired, and listened to 100s if not 1000s of cartridges.

 

[shakti]

Interesting discussion.

As a student I worked in a High End shop and my boss had a light bulb over the turntable, giving some heat to the cart if in rest position. At th beginning of my job there, I moved the bulb to have better light over the record, but my box explained, that he likes to have the cart always as 23degree celsius to get the best performance , so he adjusted the light bulb accordingly.

This is now nearly 4 decades gone..., and all the carts in use were new shop demoes, so no old rubber parts at all.

I learned there something else: Whenever I prepared a Demo, my boss asked, if a phono stage with step up is in the chain,
if yes, he recommends to have one side of a record played before the Demo "to wake up the step up" , even if the step up is well burned in, some minutes playing would stabilize / revitalize the magnetic field.

May be the step up story explains, why some hear a difference in warming up, some not. May be it is not only the warming up of the cart, but also the step up effect. Some of us do use step ups, external or internal, some have solid state phono stage only.