Whither Audio Research

[andromedaaudio]

A lot of Dealers don t wanna hassle with / aftersales of tubegear .
A lot of audiophiles are not keen on changing tubes either .

Why not state Solid state is better , problem solved.

Ps . In the year or so i owned the ARC pre i never changed a tube , it operated flawless

 

[Lee]

It seems to me a generalisation too far to say ‘tubes are dead’ because of difficulties felt by ARC, the full reasons for which are still not fully known.
There is clearly still a market for tube based audio products. The success of PrimaLuma at the more affordable end of the market and very many tube based amplifiers at the higher end at any Audio Show will testify that there is still a market for tubes.
High end audio is a niche industry, and so companies are more vulnerable than those in larger markets.
Decrying ‘tubes are dead’ seems similar to ‘vinyl is dead’ 15-20 years ago. I wouldn’t be so quick to right them off.

Agreed.

 

[gadawg58]

how many guys like you are there?

why is arc struggling?

No idea why ARC is struggling though I might guess it has more to do with poor business decisions over time than a sudden down turn in sales. That said, I also fit in the group in the question above ... have gone all tube (away from SS amps) and couldn't be happier. See signature for details.

For me personally, my new all tube setup has more in common sonically with the ultra high end gear than my SS gear did (not ultra high end by any means). True, the tube amps I'm using don't have the unlimited power my 800 watt into 4 ohms SS amps did but neither did I ever tap that full capability. Will I go SS again some day? Maybe ... tubes get impossible to find, win the lottery and buy Gryphon Apex and Commander, or some other unforeseen event but for now I'm all tubes with my big Wilson's and have never been happier! These tube amps I've got have plenty of juice and while they do run hot like the reviews state ... I have them in a room with an oversized AC unit that was built like this just in case!

Cheers

George

 

[Kcin]

It seems to me a generalisation too far to say ‘tubes are dead’ because of difficulties felt by ARC, the full reasons for which are still not fully known.
There is clearly still a market for tube based audio products. The success of PrimaLuma at the more affordable end of the market and very many tube based amplifiers at the higher end at any Audio Show will testify that there is still a market for tubes.
High end audio is a niche industry, and so companies are more vulnerable than those in larger markets.
Decrying ‘tubes are dead’ seems similar to ‘vinyl is dead’ 15-20 years ago. I wouldn’t be so quick to right them off.

I would agree with this. The company was under capitalized and you have to question financial acumen of leadership as well. Dealer policies, supply chain, rising interest costs, unknown to us encumbrances to the original transfer of ownership all play in. The period of the pandemic was a boon to audiophile mfg and dealers. The tube thing is really a red herring - limited supplies for several months and then the end user pays the new premium.

There always will be a niche market for tubes. Whether ARC is operationally optimized- right sized- for the market is another question. You have to remind your self that any tube products mfrs that are still in the game now are orders of magnitude smaller than ARC. Payroll and inventory will kill you.

 

[brad225]

how many guys like you are there?

why is arc struggling?

58 happily glowing tubes in my system. Is there a cost, absolutely. Set funds aside a little at a time and enjoy the amazing sound.
I have not heard SS that does the same for me. There probably are but, my guess is the cost will be out of my interest level.

 

[PeterA]

58 happily glowing tubes in my system. Is there a cost, absolutely. Set funds aside a little at a time and enjoy the amazing sound.
I have not heard SS that does the same for me. There probably are but, my guess is the cost will be out of my interest level.

I lived a while with the SS Lamm M1.1 on my Magicos. I preferred it by quite a bit to my pass XA 160.5. It did not quite have the magic of SET‘s, but it came pretty close.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Yes. Upgrades may bring discernible differences but in many cases the increment of improvement is far from revolutionary. A few electronics manufacturers wisely allowed factory upgrades to existing units

To their great credit Luke Manley and Bea Lam not only make sure that most, if not all, existing models can be upgraded to the new version of that model, but each model has among the longest life-cycles in our industry.

For example, VTL's top-of-the-line line stage preamplifier, the TL-7.5 Series III, was released in 2012 or 2013. This same model is made today, and it still is VTL's top-of-the-line line stage preamplifier today.

For example, VTL's top-of-the-line power amplifier, the Siegfried II, was released in 2013 or 2014. This same model is made today, and it still is VTL's top-of-the-line amplifier today.

How many manufacturers in our industry quietly make the same model for 10+ years, versus other manufacturers preferring, instead, to engage in hyperbolic marketing about small improvements in new models every couple of years?

Kudos to VTL for practicing component non-obsolescence, and for bringing out a new model only when a very significant sonic improvement has been achieved.

 

[Another Johnson]

Regarding updates, if you have a legitimate R&D staff on payroll, you need to keep them busy, or let them go.

ARC has chosen the former over their whole history. Bill’s view was that if something sounded better, then he wanted to get it into the hands of the customers. Throughout the history of ARC there have been upgrades offered to owners of the existing model.

To hold back the upgrade for five years has two very negative ramification. First, it allows the competition to catch up and pass. Second, it delays gratification of the R&D team, dulling their sense of the quest.

I’m glad that ARC is continually working on product improvements. And I’m glad they bring them to the marketplace with an upgrade path for those who own the superseded model.

 

[facten]

how many guys like you are there?

I have 2 tube integrated amps along with a tube preamp in my main system; a tube integrated amp and tube DAC in my 2nd system. I happily made a trip to TubeDepot on Friday to pick up a quad of 7189A power tubes for one of the integrated amps, and will shortly be ordering a pair of 845s from premiumvacuumtubes.com.

 

[Another Johnson]

FWIW, mom and pop operations, take CJ for example, do not have R&D staffs. The Principal, in CJ’s case Jeff Fischel, does the R&D. But he also deals with sales, repairs, procurement of materials, manufacturing, etc.

If CJ only puts out a new model every several years, it’s because it takes that long for Jeff to move through the whole cycle.

ARC is not a mom and pop operation. But neither is it a corporate giant, like Sony, or even McIntosh. Their R&D staff need to earn their keep and there aren’t so many projects that they can turn their back on one by working on lots of others.

if you don’t like upgrades, buy the REF10 and REF Phono 10. That highest level usually gets an overhaul on a longer schedule than the lower level reference series and foundation series.

 

[godofwealth]

A lot of Dealers don t wanna hassle with / aftersales of tubegear .
A lot of audiophiles are not keen on changing tubes either .

Why not state Solid state is better , problem solved.

Ps . In the year or so i owned the ARC pre i never changed a tube , it operated flawless

To me, it’s like the difference between buying TV dinners from a supermarket vs. making your own food. The latter involves work: you need to buy groceries, stock your kitchen, learn how to cook safely, and most importantly, enjoy cooking. As the saying goes, if you can’t take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. But if you do learn to cook well, you can enjoy far better and healthier food and it costs far less than eating out everyday. Not to mention orders of magnitude tastier than TV dinners. But TV dinners are easy. Stick it in micro. This same analogy holds true in high end audio.

If you can’t do something as elementary as changing tubes, you certainly shouldn’t own tube gear. In fact, you should probably not own high end audio. In my experience a lot of solid state gear is even harder to set up than replacing tubes. If you have owned dCS digital, you know of what I speak. Get one of those all in one streaming speakers. I have a Devialet Phantom for causal background listening. No fuss, no muss, plug into the wall and stream to it from your phone. Only one problem: it sounds like crap. So does most solid state gear to my ears, except for a very small percentage of high end audio gear. Even at this rarefied top end, nothing touches the sound you get from tubes, in my 30+ years of owning almost every major brand of solid state high end audio gear. Classe’, Krell,, Mark Levinson, Chord, Bryston, Esoteric, dCS etc. — I’ve owned solid state preamps, amps and DACs from all these venerable firms. And they all fall far short of the musicality of tubes.

So, I compromise. I run multiple systems. My reference system is all tube. ARC Ref 6SE line stage preamp, ARC Ref Phono 3SE phono preamp, Lampizator Pacific DAC, Triode Labs 45 SET monoblocks and Klipsch La Scala horns. One watt of glorious SET power is all I need to play music as loudly as I need to, delivered using a single Telefunken 12AX7 smooth plate triode with an Emissions Lab 45 power tube and a Western Electric 422a rectifier. This system gives me goosebumps every time I listen to it.

In my second system, it’s all solid state. Currently it’s using Mola Mola electronics, the Makua all-in-one preamp (DAC, phono, linestage) and Kaluga monoblock class D amps. Wonderfully musical for solid state. But as brilliant as Brian Putzey’s designs are, and they are truly state of the art, for my listening pleasure, it doesn’t begin to approach the quality of my all tube system. It’s nice to configure the Makua through its iPhone app, and its phono stage and DAC are truly world class, but there’s a level of three dimensionality I get from my main tube based system that completely escapes the Mola Mola gear, as good as it is.

Yup, it’s a drag to own tube gear and have to change tubes. Especially quality tubes are pricey. But just as I’d never settle for a TV dinner and prefer a nice home cooked meal, I’d rather own tubes and put up with the hassles.

My $0.02. Of course, I can’t speak for anyone else.

 

[Another Johnson]

Don’t forget that when SS fails, it usually creates an expensive mess (in my experience). I’ve had multiple Krell and Levinson failures over the years. It always meant a round trip to Connecticut. Regular tube maintenance is something you can plan for, and you can generally take care of it in situ.

 

[tima]

How many manufacturers in our industry quietly make the same model for 10+ years, versus other manufacturers preferring, instead, to engage in hyperbolic marketing about small improvements in new models every couple of years?

I thought well of the original VTL 7.5 preamp when it came out in 2002. When a manufacturer starts with a solid successful design, incremental upgrades fall more easily to hand.

 

[tima]

If you can’t do something as elementary as changing tubes, you certainly shouldn’t own tube gear.

Heh. If you can plug a toaster into a wall outlet you can change a tube.

 

[Bill Hart]

Back in the ‘70s Bill Johnson was told by an engineer that he’d set the industry back 20 years by reintroducing tubes. As tube factories closed in the West, he tried to steer the company to SS, but reviewers would not have it. They loved his tube designs. Bill said he could build a SS amp that sounded as good as a tube amp, but that it’s harder to do, and more expensive.

I don't know if you remember, but in the late '70s (if memory serves), ARC introduced solid state "analog modules"--they were some sort of circuit all sealed up in a case that replaced tubes in certain designs. As I recall, that failed miserably at the time. But ARC makes or did make some big solid state amps, didn't they? (Sorry, I haven't kept up with the company).

 

[microstrip]

I agree that it can be revisited more productively in a year or two.
Prices held during this period of uncertainty. They are taking orders and shipping orders. eBay and Audiogon have not seen much change. Dealers are not blowing things out.
This is a personal tragedy, not a corporate failure.

Yes, the future of ARC seems solid - the real proof was that the list of people offering to take care of them was long.
In Europe, the crisis was not noticed by the main audiophile community - and once the good news were known in a few audio forums, members showed to be very happy with them.

 

[Another Johnson]

I don't know if you remember, but in the late '70s (if memory serves), ARC introduced solid state "analog modules"--they were some sort of circuit all sealed up in a case that replaced tubes in certain designs. As I recall, that failed miserably at the time. But ARC makes or did make some big solid state amps, didn't they? (Sorry, I haven't kept up with the company).

Yes. So did CJ.
CJ eventually partnered with McCormick, but eventually (actually in the last decade) CJ abandoned SS.
ARC did experiment with SS … WZJ even wrote a memo to all the dealers explaining that tubes were going to be difficult to source and that the company was headed to SS.
Tube sources reappeared in Russia, China, Eastblock … and quality improved.
Ironically WZJ tried to buy one of the last US based tube suppliers, but the engineers were all retiring. He ended up buying their entire inventory instead. It lasted for several years, but eventually it was used up. At about that time reliable foreign suppliers had reappeared.

 

[microstrip]

To their great credit Luke Manley and Bea Lam not only make sure that most, if not all, existing models can be upgraded to the new version of that model, but each model has among the longest life-cycles in our industry.

For example, VTL's top-of-the-line line stage preamplifier, the TL-7.5 Series III, was released in 2012 or 2013. This same model is made today, and it still is VTL's top-of-the-line line stage preamplifier today.

For example, VTL's top-of-the-line power amplifier, the Siegfried II, was released in 2013 or 2014. This same model is made today, and it still is VTL's top-of-the-line amplifier today.

How many manufacturers in our industry quietly make the same model for 10+ years, versus other manufacturers preferring, instead, to engage in hyperbolic marketing about small improvements in new models every couple of years?

Kudos to VTL for practicing component non-obsolescence, and for bringing out a new model only when a very significant sonic improvement has been achieved.

Unfortunately their excellent upgrade policy is not well known to the public - something that also happens with many other manufacturers. In fact, it is a poor feature of the high-end - although we usually have public price lists , such price transparency does not show in upgrades. Upgrade prices and conditions are usually a taboo subject.

BTW, hyperbolic marketing is a characteristic of the high-end marketing. As a proud VTL owner, I feel happy their marketing is as hyperbolic as most others!

 

[microstrip]

Yes. So did CJ.
CJ eventually partnered with McCormick, but eventually (actually in the last decade) CJ abandoned SS.

A pity that they ceased the manufacture of the premier 350 - an excellent solid state amplifier with a fair price that I still keep for very hot Summer days.

ARC did experiment with SS … WZJ even wrote a memo to all the dealers explaining that tubes were going to be difficult to source and that the company was headed to SS.

Yes, they even designed some all SS preamplifiers. BTW, I disliked their class D amplifiers.

Tube sources reappeared in Russia, China, Eastblock … and quality improved.
Ironically WZJ tried to buy one of the last US based tube suppliers, but the engineers were all retiring. He ended up buying their entire inventory instead. It lasted for several years, but eventually it was used up. At about that time reliable foreign suppliers had reappeared.

The poor news is that after the beginning of the Ukraine crisis prices of 6h30p, KT120 and KT150 rose significantly.

 

[Another Johnson]

Nobody likes their Class D amps. You’re not alone.

Yes the P350 was/is special. I liked the MF2550SE too.