Whither Audio Research

[A-Line]

You’re suggesting that Audiophile and Music Lover are mutually exclusive terms. I’ve spent a lot of time, effort and money on my system therefore I don’t love music.

No, that is not what I'm suggesting.
I'm suggesting those that change their components as often as they change clothes and continue to do so as a regular thing most certainly are the ones that love equipment and music is very secondary.

I get that technology improves over time and that upgrades are necessary once in a while due to major advancements in technology. This is particularly true regarding digital components and things regarding digital playback. I myself will be likely upgrading my CD player soon because it's 14 years old.

i was on one forum before where the average amount that it's members spent on components annually was €500K - 1M. Essentially every component in a member's system was replaced with a "upgrade" every 2-4 weeks. I view such activities as either being one of confusion or the more obvious which is the member is a equipment hobbyist who likes buying and selling their components on a regular basis simply because they can.
Which one are you?

For me music is one of my many hobbies . I buy what's necessary for me to pursue that hobby. Once the necessary items are gathered then begins the pursuit of that particular hobby.

What I have now in the way of components only cost about €75,000.00 and if I get a new CD player this week the cost will rise to about €87,000.00. Not including phono pickups.
The average cost of member systems here in this forum is about €200,000.00+.

I had a audio system before from 1983 and that lasted until 2006 at which time I decided to redo it in order to assemble a final setup.
I kept my tape deck and a receiver out of that first system. A lot time was spent auditioning components before deciding to buy. Not that I'm short on funds but more like I wanted to buy right the first time. So from 2006-2011 I did just that.

I'm not a fan of moving but I recently sold my house of 30 years and now I'm in a nice apartment in Zurich looking for a new house to buy and retire.

Sorry if I offended you or others like you but I always state at the end of my comments: "Just my opinion(s)".

Just my opinions.
Have a nice day.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Hi RJ,

Can you please describe how you determine a numeric percentage improvement "value" and the difference between a 38 vs 40% improvement? Best.

Ah! I was actually waiting for this question!
No worries at all matey, always happy to help / explain such findings to a good mate.

Yes, as AJ rightly pointed out, 40% is my benchmark, which in fact didn't happen overnight, rather it took me a few good years to really figure out what's going on in terms of system synergy.

The 40% is not achieved by just one component on its own. It's a factor of 4 elements that would contribute to the sum of 40% or higher. The 4 elements I'm referring to are:
1. Clarity & definition
2. Tonal integrity without smeaming or artificial enhancements.
3. Musical presentation in terms of absolute capture of the recording.
4. Soundstage depth and presence (more of the full 3D holographic detail).

If I were to explain each point, people reading this would have to take annual leave just to go through it.. it'll probably end up like a thesis. So I'll skip that part and allow you to decipher each of these four elements, I'm sure you'll know what I'm referring to.

Now, what I do is allocate only 10% to each of these elements, of which if each element remains at its top most performance level then when all added up = 40%.

After placing in the new / upgraded component, it simply cannot perform a full 40% on its own, no way. What it's actually doing is operating in synergy with the rest of your system gear. So for example, that first element (clarity & definition) will also heavily depend on the speakers (plus cables). Then the elements of performance criteria continue... finally towards the last point (Soundstage depth & presence) more of that full 3D affect, will also be influenced by the rest of the amplifiers, source gear etc. Either way, if each of these areas are performing to their optimal, I will only place 10% as the highest margin. So then when each of them are performing tops and let's say one particular area (clarity & definition) exceeds 10%... then in which case that 40% benchmark will be surpassed!

That's the point where I go "wow!!! " stand up and start clapping, more or less a stop the train moment. That hasn't happened too often, and when it does, it's definitely very noticeable. There has to be system synergy and the other components are also contributing since they too are of very high quality on par.

A good example is, when I was on a quest to upgrade my digital playback system, from my long term trusted McIntosh player, the majority of players I tried didn't quite make it to even 20%. In which case, the Mac player was still quite good as it was. I think I went through about 15 different player, if memory serves correctly, to finally arrive at the Esoteric digital player. That one was more like an astounding 50%! It just performed with an awe-inspiring level, shattered all boundaries and still continues to impress.

Sure there are other digital players out there that will surpass this level but then at what cost? So I'd be looking at spending over 70grand just for an absolute improvement... forget it! Happy with the one that's playing now. It's good enough.

Another tangible example was when I upgraded to the Nordost Tyr2 speaker cables from the Heimdall2 version. That was another level exceeding 40% easily, and it's now at a very fine stage that I'm not going to spend anything further than that. Sure the Odin Supreme reference Gold2 would be wonderful but at 35grand just for 1metre... no thanks!

40% is quite a high margin, yet still its actually achievable if all other gear is in sync. If after evaluating each of those elements, and when totalled you arrive at 38%, that's still good enough. Then comes the price factor to consider. If the price is outrageously high then that purchase whether to proceed or not can only be justified by the owner. Heck! I know quite a few who've spent over 50grand just for a 5% improvement, that's very marginal. In any case, it's their money spent not mine and in some cases those owners have experienced diminishing returns. Maybe they should have waited bit longer for a more significant model to upgrade to. Don't know.

Hope that helps!
In all do respect, I'm only replying to your question... really don't want to derail the thread here, afterall it's about TonyW's latest upgrade on his ARC REFse gear. Good stuff!
Cheers, RJ

 

[thedudeabides]

Thank you mate. A very gracious, reality based audio hobbyist / music lover and a wonderful response to my inquiry. Back to the OP's thread. Best.

 

[Daverich4]

The average cost of member systems here in this forum is about €200,000.00+.

No offense taken although I’m not sure who you’re referring to when you say “others like you.” In any event, I’m curious about your estimate of the cost of members systems here. Was there a poll on that topic or something else?

 

[thedudeabides]

I'm suggesting those that change their components as often as they change clothes and continue to do so as a regular thing most certainly are the ones that love equipment and music is very secondary.

i was on one forum before where the average amount that it's members spent on components annually was €500K - 1M. Essentially every component in a member's system was replaced with a "upgrade" every 2-4 weeks.

How did you determine the average annual dollar amount for forum members? How many folks do you personally know on that forum that, for a fact, upgraded their system every two to four weeks?

Which one are you?

Sounds very accusatory and provocative, not opinionated.

The average cost of member systems here in this forum is about €200,000.00+.

Per your profile, you joined WBF eight days ago and have posted 54 times to date. Is that information correct? What is your source of information to substantiate this claim and how did you determine this average? My current system cost is $900 excluding my tablet and $10 / month music streaming subscription.

Sorry if I offended you or others like you but I always state at the end of my comments: "Just my opinion(s)".

You may want to consider providing factual data to back up your claims and a more modest, less aggressive tone when you post. Just my opinion. Have a nice day.

 

[mulveling]

I had a Reference 3SE phono; sold it for "reasons" and still miss it. Its Low Gain (i.e. MM) mode is the best I've ever heard. Even better than the VAC Renaissance SE / Master level phono stages. High Gain / MC mode is also excellent, but I still generally preferred a SUT pairing w/ MM mode for MC carts. I certainly didn't find it noiseless either - but then I do play back very loud (louder than most audiophiles). For me, the High Gain / MC mode is best paired to cartridges 0.3mV - 0.5mV. And it's ALSO extremely sensitive to EMI / RFI noise in the environment. I believe Fremer mentioned this in his review. Well, I heard "demonic noises" loud and clear from a plasma TV in the next room! This problem doesn't exist when you use a SUT with Low Gain / MM mode.

All that said, I still preferred the 3SE's High Gain mode versus the VAC's built-in Lundahl SUTs. I'm just not a fan of Lundahl LL1931. But EAR MC-4 paired with Low Gain mode was my choice over High Gain mode, 9 times out of 10. The Quadratic MC-1 was also a very nice combo, especially if you want to emphasize bass response!

 

[caesar]

Gentlemen, it's nice that guys are upgrading their preamps from standard to SE. I am sure Audio Research appreciates that!

But for those who want Audio Research to succeed, let's see guys start ponying up for their new, near 6 figure tube monoblocks they just released. Word on the street is that they are excellent. Anyone get those yet?

 

[TonyW]

Show us the way. I would if I could. I've wanted a tube amplifier for decades but first shied away when I had two little boys and now, it's just the fuss and replacement cost for tubes that holds me back. I burn my preamp about 1300 hours/year. Now, even preamp tubes are getting to be noticeably costly. My dealer where I got the Ref 6SE has offered to loan me his Ref 160s amplifier for an audition in my system. Tempting, but I'm afraid I would not take it back after hearing it in my system. I'm a pushover when I hear something good in my system. It's hard for me to go back. Besides, would I want to stay with mono amps?

I'm playing records right now and my Ref 2SE phono sounds really good paired with my new Ref 6SE preamp. I'm agonizing over the Ref 3SE phono wondering if the sound upgrade is worth the price of admission for me or am I more motivated just to have the matched set. I must ponder this for many days.

 

[TonyW]

I have been listening to vinyl for several days now with my new Ref 6SE and my current Ref 2SE Phono preamp. I find the Ref 6SE was a good step up for the sound of my vinyl. The improved clarity and bass of the Ref 6SE caused me to readjust my Tonearm VTA. The bass was sounding a bit thick and slow. I was even doing an A/B comparison between vinyl and the digital version to confirm. I have a SME tonearm. Adjusting the VTA is a time consuming process. After each VTA adjustment, HTA must be reset as well. So I spent the better part of a day getting the VTA dialed in. I started with the back of the tonearm about 1mm lower than the front. I ended with the back of the tonearm about 1/4mm higher than the front. (I'm reduced to using some 3x glasses and lots of light now). At that setting the digital and vinyl versions of songs sounded identical- crisp and fast. I'm using a Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC ES phono cartridge. I like the sound of it and this cartridge tracks like it is on rails. It is a low output cartridge and I have the Ref 2SE set on high gain, 500 ohms.

The Ref 6SE/Ref 2SE combo is killer. Much improved bass and very sweet, airy highs- especially with Jazz recordings. I played some 70s rock and the highs were a bit strident. But that is 70s rock. My cousin says I need a separate system for 70s rock. Perhaps. Some of that music just doesn't go that well with hifi. Some two way speakers with iron tweeters and 15" woofers are likely a better fit for some mid 70s rock. But the 70s still produced some great music and great sounding music which I always enjoy. Most of the time I am inclined to listen to it on vinyl. Perhaps it is more tradition these days because I feel like the digital versions come very close now. Right now I am playing record after record. Vinyl is the best it has ever sounded on my rig.

What I am saying is that I am enjoying my vinyl just fine for now with the current preamp and phono preamp combo. I don't feel I can justify for myself the upgrade to the Ref 3SE. Still, I wonder how much more better vinyl could sound with the Ref 3SE phono preamp. My energy, my drive to go for the best sound I can afford is tapering off, I guess. Have I started to settle? Is it all downhill from here?


*One other dimension to the sound is rhythm and pace. I worked years ago to get the rhythm and pace right on my vinyl rig. It wasn't until I got my current DAC and music server (and my current CD transport) that my digital side finally has that same flow to the music. Of course the turntable is the biggest contributor to R&P for vinyl but speakers, cables and electronics contribute as well. It was something that I could hear all the way back to the 1980s but didn't understand what it was until the late 1990s. I can't do an A/B comparison for it. I have to just listen to the music and it either hits me or it doesn't. Linn, Oracle, my Sota- when set up properly, were some of the turntables back in the 1990s that just hit me with that special R&P. When it is good, it is hard to stop listening to the music. If anyone knows of some other turntables with great R&P, let me know. I'm no expert. My point about my Sota is that I found the suspension springs are good for only a few years. The R&P deteriorates as those springs age. What I found is the subchassis starts to develop a small torsional motion that is no longer damped by the springs. It's caused by the torque from the motor because the motor is mounted on the fixed plinth and the belt pulls on the platter creating a torque on the subchassis. I let the springs go on my first Sota so far 30 years ago that it even affected the sound of the highs. So lesson learned is change out those springs from time to time.

 

[TonyW]

I moved the phono preamp away from the line stage. This seems to bother me less that they do not match.

 

[brad225]

Glad to hear it is improving Tony. I don't think I would ever have the patients to do that
.

 

[TonyW]

It’s a labor of love.

 

[Lee]

View attachment 134395I moved the phono preamp away from the line stage. This seems to bother me less that they do not match.

That’s an awesome system Tony. FWIW, I had a non-SE Ref 2 phono stage and the step up to the Ref 3SE was tremendous. Maybe that’s a future upgrade down the road for you.

 

[TonyW]

Thank you Lee. I see you are using the ARC REF160s stereo amplifier with your Alexia V's. Nice. My dealer in Atlanta has offered to let me bring a REF160s home for an audition. I'm worried that I will not want to return it. No doubt the REF160s gives you that magic midrange. Are you satisfied with the bass performance? My dealer here says I will be with my speakers. How do you find that amp overall compared to any SS amps you have auditioned?

 

[Lee]

Thank you Lee. I see you are using the ARC REF160s stereo amplifier with your Alexia V's. Nice. My dealer in Atlanta has offered to let me bring a REF160s home for an audition. I'm worried that I will not want to return it. No doubt the REF160s gives you that magic midrange. Are you satisfied with the bass performance? My dealer here says I will be with my speakers. How do you find that amp overall compared to any SS amps you have auditioned?

Yes, I power the Vs with a Ref 160 Stereo. Seems to be plenty of power but I hope to try the Ref 330 at some point. Bass performance is fantastic. Midrange and highs are glorious. I have trouble finding SS amps that I enjoy. Maybe the Dartzeels at Jacob Heilbrunn's place are the exception.

 

[tima]

What I am saying is that I am enjoying my vinyl just fine for now with the current preamp and phono preamp combo. I don't feel I can justify for myself the upgrade to the Ref 3SE. Still, I wonder how much more better vinyl could sound with the Ref 3SE phono preamp. My energy, my drive to go for the best sound I can afford is tapering off, I guess. Have I started to settle? Is it all downhill from here?

I will suggest looking for a used Ref Phono 10. It is the significant step up from the 2SE that you are looking for, and I found it more realistic/natural/believable than the 3SE. For a few months I had all 3 in my system at the same time for in-depth listening and note taking for a review I never published. There is a reason the Ref 10 and Ref Phono 10 remain at the top in ARC's lineup.

 

[godofwealth]

Just took delivery of an ARC 750SE, which was practically NOS (20 minutes on the original tubes). Looks mint. Unpacking and setting up this behemoth is not for the faint of heart, but it was easier than I imagined. Simply put, in 40 years of buying amplifiers, I have never owned a better built amp. The construction is Rolls Royce. It just oozes quality. It needs to break in for several hundred hours, but on my Quad 2905, it peels away layers of fog and confusion to render one of the most transparent soundstages I’ve heard. It’s the best amplifier I have owned and I’ve owned plenty of high end amps. It’s a room heater for sure! With 18 KT150 tubes per channel, it’s guaranteed to raise the temperature of your listening room. But wow, what a treat to listen to this stunning amplifier. More as it breaks in.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Just took delivery of an ARC 750SE, which was practically NOS (20 minutes on the original tubes). Looks mint. Unpacking and setting up this behemoth is not for the faint of heart, but it was easier than I imagined. Simply put, in 40 years of buying amplifiers, I have never owned a better built amp. The construction is Rolls Royce. It just oozes quality. It needs to break in for several hundred hours, but on my Quad 2905, it peels away layers of fog and confusion to render one of the most transparent soundstages I’ve heard. It’s the best amplifier I have owned and I’ve owned plenty of high end amps. It’s a room heater for sure! With 18 KT150 tubes per channel, it’s guaranteed to raise the temperature of your listening room. But wow, what a treat to listen to this stunning amplifier. More as it breaks in.

View attachment 135741

Oh yeah! Look out!
That's a truck load of tooobs!

Speaking of "transparency" on the Quad ESL 2905's, exactly the same stats I had, just before the CLX's. I've got a thread dedicated to all that jazz and my journey from Quads to ML stats. Although I loved the Quads, and used various amplifiers from CJ, the later models coming out of China were an absolute disaster, for me at least. Around 2015/16 I managed to refurb both my ESL's 2905's and 2912's and promptly sold them off. Then started with the ML stat hybrids, Ethos, Montis and Summit-X and finally onto the CLX's in Sept 2018.

The level of transparency just from the entry level Ethos was way beyond any Quads that I've owned. In fact so transparent to the core, it made me cry as to the amount of hard earned money I spent on two very high profile Quad ESL's, then having to spend over 10grand repairing and refurbing them upto spec, just to make two models sellable. Otherwise no one would even bother to look at broken Quads! Overall, I had spent over 30grand to buy and fix these Quads.
When the service tech opened up each of the Quads, and I saw the poor quality of tech & workmanship... I cried even more! That's all she wrote!

The Ethos only cost me 4.5grand brand new! From that first note I heard on the Ethos, I knew straight away that I'm going all the way to the top, and the CLX's it was, just marvellous!

OTOH, I've never had an issue with the older Quads made in England, ESL 63 and 57's, not one issue at all. Maybe it was just my bad luck or something or perhaps just a bad batch of quality control but to have multiple panel failures and trannny failures on both models is unacceptable. I lost my respect for Quad BUT I still do hold a very high regard for Peter Walker. He's a genuine gentleman and an absolute genius! After all, PW is the one who thought of concentric ring anodes, giving the Quad ESL's a very unique dispersion pattern. No other electrostat does this. Respect!
The few minutes I met PW during my student years in London, was one encounter I'll never forget. So much to learn from a genius, yet so very humble. I reckon a few pints would've got him taking more. RIP PW, the electrostat guru!

I truly hope your Quads are in top condition and upto spec. If not, don't forget ML or Diptyque reference are always available.
Cheers, RJ

 

[TonyW]

Way cool. Congratulations. Dream amplifiers for sure.
Get some 1.5” Dia by 2” long 48 lb/in springs from McMasterCarr. Put four springs under each of those platforms the amps are sitting on and they will isolate the amps from the floor. See how that sounds for a few bucks and a little effort. They have ground flat ends so they will be stable. But I countersink holes in my platforms to keep the springs secure from any side push. The springs are going to compress 1” in your case so the wheels might get in the way.

 

[godofwealth]

The only ML speaker I owned for a few years was a first generation CLS that I bought used from a lady in Berkeley who was kind enough to bring them to me in her pickup. Boy, was that an inefficient speaker. It required hundreds of watts to just bring them to conversational level. I’m guessing the panels were not in the greatest condition. ML couldn’t replace them, so I junked them in the trash a year ago.

My 2905s are upgraded by Kent McCollum, Quad restorer par excellence. They work flawlessly. I’d never change them for any ML. I have three pairs of Quads — 57s, 2805s, and the 2905s.

Now as it happens I’m taking delivery in a month of my dream electrostatics — a massive 9’ x 4’ pair of Soundlab G9-7c in their Audiophile finish. Will update when I get those delivered. I’ve dreamt about owning SLs for 35+ years and it’s finally becoming a reality. I like companies that stay close to their roots. SL is still a very small family run business. Speakers are custom made and take several months to be delivered.