Who Still Uses A Preamp

Who Uses A Separate Preamplifier vs Integrated Amp/Preamp


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I use a Conrad Johnson PV-14L which is going to RHB Sounddezign for modifications in August.

Interesting. What are you going to have done to the unit?
 
I am going to have them install their Dynamic Linearity Servo circuit with V-caps, also the capacitors will be upgraded throughout the unit, they will install their power supply upgrade as well as adding a second set of output jacks. I was going to possibly upgrade my preamp to something in the under $3000 price arena and then I saw what was out there in that range and then talked to a gentleman who had his CJ preamp modified by RHB and decided I should get the best improvement going the modification route (we'll see). The gentleman I talked with had both the CJ and an ARC LS-16 which is what I was looking to possibly upgrade to and when he got his CJ back from being modified and compared the two, he said it was a no brainer decision the modified CJ unit sounded THAT MUCH better than the ARC he sold the ARC. If you want more detailed explanations of RHB mods their web site is rhbsounddezign.com
 
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I use a separate linestage, and phono stage. I tend to break things up into their component parts, the Lego approach to system building. This is because I'm constantly updating circuits, modifying things, and trying new things, so by limiting the scope of each device, I can quickly test ideas for individual system pieces.
 
I am currently awaiting delivery of new preamplification from Experience Music which will include:

Mono SUT (wound by Dave Slagle)
Stereo SUT (also wound by Dave)
LCR phono stage
71A Line Stage with mercury rectifier tubes
 
I still use and love my CAT SL 1 Signature which I have rolled tubes into. BTW, if you are a CAT owner, you haven't really heard your preamp until you roll in tubes! With the stock tubes, the CAT is a very good preamp which competes against most others in todays market ,IMHO. However, with the stock tubes, there are a few preamps, like the BAT REX among others that out do it. Roll in tubes, and if you get it right, this preamp leaps to another plane; again IMHO, easily competitive with the likes of the REX. Getting back to the subject, many years ago I did an 'AB with the CAT vs. a passive volume control. The results weren't even close, the passive unit robbed the music of drive and top-end and was barely even listenable.
 
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I still use and love my CAT SL 1 Signature which I have rolled tubes into. BTW, if you are a CAT owner, you haven't really heard your preamp until you roll in tubes! With the stock tubes, the CAT is a very good preamp
which competes against most others in todays market IMHO. However, with the stock tubes, there are a few preamps, like the BAT REX among others that out do it. Roll in tubes and if you get it right, this preamp
leaps to another plane; again IMHO, easily competitive with the likes of the REX. Getting back to the subject, many years ago I did an 'AB with the CAT vs. a passive volume control. The results weren't even close,
the passive unit robbed the music of drive and top-end and was barely even listenable.

I'm not sure about the new CATs but my friends experience with rolling tubes with his early unit was mixed results. The unit seemed to be hard on some tubes and they didn't last.
 
I don't know if the CAT is "hard" on tubes or the circuit is just more susceptible to tube noise. Ken Stevens takes great pains to grade his tubes and only use those that are extremely quiet. I owned an SL-1 Signature with tubes from Kevin and it was a quiet preamp. It's probably my imagination, but I swear I could hear the SS power supply in the CAT and I sold it and returned to the Counterpoint SA-5.1. Now my 5.1 has developed a low level hum which I am sure is coming from one or more of the power supply caps. The line stage and phono stage have both been rebuilt by Mike Elliott, but the power supply has not been touched yet. I am at a cross roads with regards to sending the unit back to Mike and spending another $2K to upgrade the power supply and replace the volume pot with the DACT unit or moving on and trying something else.
 
I'm using an BAT VK-31SE with NOS 6H30's. For my phono stage I've got an Aesthetix Rhea. Love the sound of both of them

Before the VK-31SE I had a VK-30 and prior to that a Sonic Frontiers SFL-1. Love tubes pre-amps, but way back when I also had an Apt Holman. I gave it to my son a few years ago and found out recently that he sold it when he moved from Conneticut to San Francisco. I could have strangled him. It would have been fun to keep it for nostalgia.
 
Myles, it's very odd, I have also heard that on some of the earlier models that the preamp was hard on tubes. That has not been my experience with my SL1. I rolled in NOS GE Large plates and Valvos and the preamp went into a different league.
My a'phile friends and I have AB'ed my preamp against a BAT REX and we all felt that it was very close with two guys thinking the BAT edged the CAT and the other four thinking the CAT edged the BAT. With the stock tubes, we all felt the CAT was not competitive.
 
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Hi,

I use my Tag Mclaren PA20R pre amp with my Harman Kardon PA2400 power amp & IMHO they both sound great.

willie G
 
I have a preamp. Over the years I have gone from separate preamp and amp, to integrated, and back again, a couple of times.
 
Do you really, I mean really NEED a pre amp?

For SEVENTEEN years I lived without a dedicated pre-amp. In '93 I had the opportunity to listen to a shoot out between the Mark Levinson Reference, the Jeff Roland 2 box reference (all top leaders in that era), followed with the EAD Dac/Pre Theater master.

The dac and pre combo were good enough to not want to spend more on a dedicated line stage, power chord and interconnect cables -$15-$20K+ outlay for that extra few percent of magic.

I listened to only digital during that period I did not need an array of inputs, so stuck with the EAD Theater Master. I felt it was great performance from this unit, till I moved to the Theta's Casablanca. I had all these components when they were just launched and firmly believed they were great performers and offered superb value!

Finally for the last 5-6 years I was highly contended with my 2 box Emm digital signature combo. In fact one of the more popular websites even gave the Emm pre an award of the best pre for 2007....I was chuffed at my decision process and thought - what do others find so good in their pre-amps apart from the ability of having more inputs and some form of versatility that was irrelevant to my needs. No one uses a tone control or really requires a balance knob on their Pre! These extra switches or controls would add impurity, noise, extra circuit for the signals to travel, degradation, and the cost of all those accessories to go with it!!!

Well then analog re-entered my spectrum of listening early this year, and so a phono stage was needed. Within 3 months I realized that phonostage's exhibited such a wide variety of performance that change was necessary and it triggered the thought process that probably a dedicated pre could make a difference too! Technology has advanced too...

Well, I now have a dedicated phonostage and a dedicated linestage preamp, and realize that I could not be without either of the two ever in my system. One for the need to playback analog and most of all for the immense lift in performance.

I was wrong for 17 years, but have no regrets, I guess we listen, read and learn.

Yup, we do need a pre-amp - be it only a line stage, and external phono, or a combo- dedicated pre we do!
 
I tried to "get rid" from a preamp using either a passive design (i tried with three different options) or using a variable output spurce directly to a power amp ( tried that also with three different sources). My conclusion was, one NEEDS a preamp to get a full integration of source components with the sensitivity that power amps handle, OR go to a full Integrated amp with an active preamp included (again, not passive) based in my short trial described above.
 
Hi

The last posts from another thread reminded how difficult it is to describe auditory perceptions in words. I would think that the blackest background comes from CD or digital since their S/N ratio is superior to analogue... Analogue fan describes the "blackness" in other terms .. I am OK with that it is matter of enjoyment.

Now concerning the preamps or absence of such. I favor the system approach: Amp with matched preamp. I did that with the Burmester amps and preamps.. This is where I find the experience curious ..
The Burmester DAC was in itself a Digital “preamp” complete with Volume control and source switching. I did find the system more to my liking when it went through a Burmester preamp, I did not use it with another preamp but I think my impressions might have remained the same.
And I now question that. I am adding more cabling, more circuitry, more noise, more distortion however low it may be, why is it that I seem to prefer it?.. Note that I didn’t say: it was better . I simply said I preferred it. Is it my audiophile education? Experiences? Biases? Audiophile Biases?
The same argument would hold for integrated amplifiers… You get rid of cabling issues once and for all and frankly we know enough about how to isolate stages to make the whole issue of interferences moot... yet most audiophiles would automatically prefer separates least of the reasons the ability to swap cables .. Yet even cable agnostic audiophiles and believe they are getting more numerous prefer separates …
All this is driving us to an honest question: How reliable are our observations ? How reliable are some of our preferences? How would have we reacted? With knowledge removed? … I hasten to say that I am not talking about DBT here.. Let’s push DBT very far from this discussion.. No! I am suggesting something like this.. Given the Dar Tzeel Integrated in a system and the same system with the separates of course same power and/or level matched if possible? Which one would have we picked? Based on musical pieces we know well? Without knowing which was playing?
This to me is not only rhetorical. I know the top of the line Burmester amp the 909 started its life as an integrated. It was supposed to have the line stage in the same chassis... Yet when came time to market it became a separated amp… I am certain Audiophiles would not have taken it as seriously if it were a mere integrated and likely market research told them so.

With the plethora of separate phono and now Tape Heads pre-preamps, whose outputs are line level anyway … removing this “preamp” from the chain would have made it more “pure” .. No? Yes?
 
FrantzM, I think that the reason that integrated amps have not generally performed as well as separates, is due to the aspect of the designer of the integrated cutting cost in the integrated unit. Traditionally, the parts quality, power supplies, preamp section and the isolation have been inferior to stand alone pieces.
I would agree that in theory, a superb integrated with a tremendous preamp section and amp section could/should outperform separates. If, for no other reason, than the elimination of cabling issues. I'm not even sure that the Dartzeel integrated ,qualifies as to the designer's best effort in preamp and amp design in one box.
 
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That is the thinking ... but what keeps the designers seems to be our unwillingness to accept integrated .. We simply assume them to be inferior, even to separates from other manufacturer ... I have not heard the Dar Tzeel integrated but from many sources it seems to hold its own and more versus many highly touted separates .. AS an aside have you heard it? I do believe however that an integrated can be as good as separates, there is no technical reason why it shouldn't be. Again I am not sure they have not performed as well either since often we are not comparing apples with apples... A case is the DeVialet D-Premier which by all accounts has the audiophile world abuzz is extremely integrated Line Stage, DAC and amp in one box .. actually it has also a ACD since its any analogue input is digitized ... I have heard great things about the Behold Integrated and the Burmester 032 ... Our (including mine) usual response to integrated is tepid because truly we are prejudiced against them .. So manufacturers don't dare .. They are after all in business to make money and I would think separates makes more business sense to them ..
 
All this is driving us to an honest question: How reliable are our observations ? How reliable are some of our preferences? How would have we reacted? With knowledge removed? … I hasten to say that I am not talking about DBT here.. Let’s push DBT very far from this discussion.. No! I am suggesting something like this.. Given the Dar Tzeel Integrated in a system and the same system with the separates of course same power and/or level matched if possible? Which one would have we picked? Based on musical pieces we know well? Without knowing which was playing?

FrantzM,
Your question is honest, but the equipment that is suggested for comparison makes it dishonest :confused:
There are very large differences in the conception of the Dart integrated amplifier and it sounds very different from the separates, as could be expected by the large technical differences. IMHO, the integrated lacks the refinement and ultimate sound quality that makes the price of the separates acceptable. They were prepared for different type of users.
 
Jonathan Weiss of Oswalds Mill Audio stopped by my home this evening and he checked my system with the new Oswalds Mill Audio New Yorker speakers. When playing vinyl we found that we had better sound with the Soundsmith Strain Gauge Cartridge and Soundsmith Strain Gauge 410 Phono Preamp directly into my my First Watt M2 power amp than the same combination with the Soundsmith Phono preamp running through the ARC LS10 Line Stage Preamp. The LS10 degraded the sound. The Soundsmith has a fair volume adjustment. So, it seems for critical listening I will do this in the future and run my CD player and DAC directly into Aux input for the Soundsmith Phono Preamp and not use the LS10 for critical playback. I will use the LS10 and the Onkyo 885 Pre/Pro for multichannel listening and movies. However, I will be looking to replace the silver cables to something probably with some copper content for the Soundsmith/First Watt playback for vinyl and stereo digital playback because the silver is not a good match for the horn speakers.

Rich
 
I use a ARC sp-16 for my Linn TT and my Mac MVP-851 cd player. The HT pass through goes to a Krell Showcase for movies.
 

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