Why do people that own vintage gear think It's better than new gear

[bonzo75]

Did you prefer it to the EMT927?

I did. Marty heard only the American Sounds and techdas and preferred the AS. Steve preferred both AS and EMT gee didn't hear the Thorens. JdZA also owns the Thorens ref and says that's where he stopped upgrading. I know a guy in the UK who has 60k records (he does archiving) and when I started telling him what I heard at David's he said thorens ref would have been the best, even before I finished.
I have asked some people in the UK which TT to buy under 10k used and advises have always been lenco, seiki, audionote reference, and one of the Vygers. Over many well known current brands.

 

[microstrip]

I did. Marty heard only the American Sounds and techdas and preferred the AS. Steve preferred both AS and EMT gee didn't hear the Thorens. JdZA also owns the Thorens ref and says that's where he stopped upgrading. I know a guy in the UK who has 60k records (he does archiving) and when I started telling him what I heard at David's he said thorens ref would have been the best, even before I finished.
I have asked some people in the UK which TT to buy under 10k used and advises have always been lenco, seiki, audionote reference, and one of the Vygers. Over many well known current brands.

Thanks. The Thorens Reference has an interesting and rare three phase synchronous motor, but has a feedback system to control speed. Although I could locate and EMT 927's for sale in Europe I have never seen an available Thorens Reference. Did you ever get a price for it?

I am astonished that your list does not include the simple Garrard 401 - one the greatest UK bargains!

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks. The Thorens Reference has an interesting and rare three phase synchronous motor, but has a feedback system to control speed. Although I could locate and EMT 927's for sale in Europe I have never seen an available Thorens Reference. Did you ever get a price for it?

I am astonished that your list does not include the simple Garrard 401 - one the greatest UK bargains!

It does. People say it is up to me to decide if I like the Lenco sound, the Garrard sound or the Thorens 124. Either one is a bargain. A lot of Garrard restores here but I want to listen to a good Audiograil BobC plinth restore, or a Lorricraft, in a system with another TT. I also want to listen to a PTP 12 Lenco. Now, I have never heard a good restore. So I will wait on that. You are on my list to visit to compare Forsell and the Garrard btw . I have read your posts and ACs about the Forsell midrange. Unfortunately from DDK's visit the lesson was one might need two TTs, one for prettiness in the mids to make you melt and the other for dynamic slam and bass.

That said, those same people do say the others on that list should be better than these restores.

Btw, a Versa I wanted to listen to got sold off, it was in the system of a guy who owns the Vox Olympians and Kondo and EMT 927.

Pietro, whom I visited, owns GPA Monaco, Graham, and Zyx with his Yamamura horns, owns the Versa with his Goldmund Apologue (300k speaker). He also owns the normal Thorens (not ref) with Da Vinci Grandeza and Jan Allaerts.

Just that this shows vintage TT ownership is easily mixed with modern, expensive components and is not about guys who do it only for the sake of Vintage romance.

 

[jeff1225]

I dabbled for a year or so in those vintage MM cartridges too recommended in that Audiogon thread.

enjoyable....yes...lots of fun.

able to look the best current LOMC in the eye???

not even close......so...I moved on.

vintage....is...vintage. lots of fun, involving and sexy, interesting..........but less of the whole picture. and when pushed with complicated, dynamic, music they get very sloppy. OTOH when kept within their design envelope vintage MM cart's can be very satisfying.

Mike,
The MM carts are different to my ears than the LOMC. Sometimes, I want to listen to a warmer or more vintage sound, its easier to switch out my LOMC cart for a Shure V15 than roll in some vintage Tannoys. MM carts state of the art in detail and resolution, absolutely not. High level of audio enjoyment, absolutely.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It does. People say it is up to me to decide if I like the Lenco sound, the Garrard sound or the Thorens 124. Either one is a bargain. A lot of Garrard restores here but I want to listen to a good Audiograil BobC plinth restore, or a Lorricraft, in a system with another TT. I also want to listen to a PTP 12 Lenco. Now, I have never heard a good restore. So I will wait on that. You are on my list to visit to compare Forsell and the Garrard btw . I have read your posts and ACs about the Forsell midrange. Unfortunately from DDK's visit the lesson was one might need two TTs, one for prettiness in the mids to make you melt and the other for dynamic slam and bass.

That said, those same people do say the others on that list should be better than these restores.

Btw, a Versa I wanted to listen to got sold off, it was in the system of a guy who owns the Vox Olympians and Kondo and EMT 927.

Pietro, whom I visited, owns GPA Monaco, Graham, and Zyx with his Yamamura horns, owns the Versa with his Goldmund Apologue (300k speaker). He also owns the normal Thorens (not ref) with Da Vinci Grandeza and Jan Allaerts.

Just that this shows vintage TT ownership is easily mixed with modern, expensive components and is not about guys who do it only for the sake of Vintage romance.

I owned a Dobbins/Garrard 301 high quality rebuild with a Loricraft PSU301 AR for a few years to allow for using the original 50hz signal. I had that in the same room as a Rockport Sirius III, Dobbins/Technics SP-10 Mk2, Dobbins/Technics SP-10 MK3, Dobbins 'The Beat', and the Wave Kinetics NVS. I moved arms from tt to tt over time to identify what the tt was contributing.

the 301 was great fun. it laid it's own signature over everything......adding a bit of rounding and punch. and it's noise floor was relatively high.

my low noise, high resolution system was maybe not the most friendly to it's considerable strengths as it exposed it's shortcomings. I had a few friends that preferred the 301 to all others.

I'd say the 301 had the biggest 'grin' factor when all the stars aligned.

careful what you ask for.

 

[prerich]

Seems like a lot of folks want to compare the average vintage gear to today's top of the line... doesn't make sense imo... not apples to apples.

Excellent statement!!!

 

[16hz lover]

Bad capacitors in my Audio Research preamp, collapsed suspension in my Monster Cable cartridge, bad bearing in my Oracle turntable, bad channel in the Adcom 555 amp, bad channel in the PS Audio amp, etc., have ruined the vintage audio mystique for me.

 

[bonzo75]

How are those vintage?

 

[16hz lover]

How are those vintage?

They were all 20+years old and over. How old do they have to be?

 

[microstrip]

Bad capacitors in my Audio Research preamp, collapsed suspension in my Monster Cable cartridge, bad bearing in my Oracle turntable, bad channel in the Adcom 555 amp, bad channel in the PS Audio amp, etc., have ruined the vintage audio mystique for me.

Vintage hifi needs maintenance ... Some preventive service is mandatory with most equipment.

 

[PeterA]

They were all 20+years old and over. How old do they have to be?

Good question. Some might consider an SME 30 with V arm to be vintage, though they are still in production. What about a Pass Aleph 3 amplifier?

 

[Zero000]

Vintage gear is just cool.

I get a kick out of trying 1920s triodes in my DAC. 1940s and 50s triodes in my amps. 1970s tranny power amps etc.

Something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue.

TBH much of the vintage stuff really isn't better or worse than modern stuff. It just sounds different, much like comparing modern with modern.

Every component change makes a sonic change. You just decide which you like over time. Good bits tend to stay, old or new, in my system, for longer than non-good bits. All I can say, really. How old it is really seems to have little bearing.

 

[witchdoctor]

I am always amazed when people that own vintage gear think It's better than new gear. Are these people just Into nostalgia or are they In denial?

There are only two types of gear, good gear and bad gear. As long as the gear is good it makes 0 difference how old it is. Your assumption that vintage gear = bad gear (or less SQ than new gear) is ignorant.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I listened to this this afternoon Halcro DM 68 , sounds great clean powerfull controlled , i might swap my Cat for a pair of DM 68 if the price is right .
Dont know if its better , it certainly is different lol , have a lot of doubts if its good what i might do , would be better to keep both and decide after 3 months .
The raidhos definetively benefitted from powerfull amp control

halcro dm 58 by andromeda61, on Flickr

 

[RogerD]

There are only two types of gear, good gear and bad gear. As long as the gear is good it makes 0 difference how old it is. Your assumption that vintage gear = bad gear (or less SQ than new gear) is ignorant.

I tend to agree,except older gear probably needs to be updated. Must tube amps are based on the Williamson circuit,so except for the transformers,resistors,and caps and grounding scheme...nothing new. Most older gear were designed with more bells and whistles and the build quality was excellent. Transformers tend not to be as colored,but that seems to be a personal choice anyway. Most of my gear is 30 and 40 years old. If it sounded great when I purchased....what's changed.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Cool system

 

[RogerD]

Cool system

Thanks...if it's meant for me. I think so...

 

[andromedaaudio]

Off course
Putting all the magazines latetest great together aint my goal either for satisfaction in the long run.

To be honest i dont wanna part with the CAT power amp , but have a solid state system side by side just for a welcome change once in a while

 

[bonzo75]

I tend to agree,except older gear probably needs to be updated. Must tube amps are based on the Williamson circuit,so except for the transformers,resistors,and caps and grounding scheme...nothing new. Most older gear were designed with more bells and whistles and the build quality was excellent. Transformers tend not to be as colored,but that seems to be a personal choice anyway. Most of my gear is 30 and 40 years old. If it sounded great when I purchased....what's changed.

View attachment 30189

Roger, what are the details of your gear?

 

[PeterA]

There are only two types of gear, good gear and bad gear. As long as the gear is good it makes 0 difference how old it is. Your assumption that vintage gear = bad gear (or less SQ than new gear) is ignorant.

I agree. When will my Magico Mini IIs be considered "vintage"? They are legacy products and displayed in the Magico corporate museum. They are probably considered ancient by current model standards.