Why, oh why, does vinyl continue to blow away digital?

[PeterA]

That's a decimated response

Ron posts videos of his system for his own amusement and thanks people when they respond. Bonzo posts for his own amusement and continues to post when others respond.

 

[Kingrex]

Ron posts videos of his system for his own amusement and thanks people when they respond. Bonzo posts for his own amusement and continues to post when others respond.

We should start a new thread, Owe Why do I post?

 

[Rexp]

Because of the memory retention problem, one can never fully enjoy listening to an entire album via streaming as subsequent tracks after the 1st track selected (not necessarily the first track on that album) to be played will always sound less opened, dynamically restrained, and less satisfying musically.

But if one creates a playlist of that album and insert something else from another album in between all the tracks of that original album, then the album will sound more consistent from beginning to end. The problem is you need that something else to be a silent track and it has to be as short as possible in order to minimise the disruption to the musical flow. And that "bridging" track has to be the same format and resolution as all the tracks from the original album, or otherwise the DAC will react adversely and subsequently exhibit some sonic anomalies. (Because of this different and separate issue, one should never directly compare 2 tracks of different resolution immediately one after the other. Always use a "bridging" track of similar resolution to the 2nd track to "climatise" the DAC)

Could this also be the problem with the recording process ADC>DAW? I have recently discovered I like some live stream recordings on YouTube but not the released digital album.

 

[hopkins]

Could this also be the problem with the recording process ADC>DAW? I have recently discovered I like some live stream recordings on YouTube but not the released digital album.

Such as the last one you posted (Grace Kelly) and which are in fact strictly identical?

 

[wil]

Because of the memory retention problem, one can never fully enjoy listening to an entire album via streaming as subsequent tracks after the 1st track selected (not necessarily the first track on that album) to be played will always sound less opened, dynamically restrained, and less satisfying musically.

But if one creates a playlist of that album and insert something else from another album in between all the tracks of that original album, then the album will sound more consistent from beginning to end. The problem is you need that something else to be a silent track and it has to be as short as possible in order to minimise the disruption to the musical flow. And that "bridging" track has to be the same format and resolution as all the tracks from the original album, or otherwise the DAC will react adversely and subsequently exhibit some sonic anomalies. (Because of this different and separate issue, one should never directly compare 2 tracks of different resolution immediately one after the other. Always use a "bridging" track of similar resolution to the 2nd track to "climatise" the DAC)

@jeromelang, have you ever run your observation/theory by a DAC designer (like Andreas Koch of your Playback Designs) to see if they confirm technically what you’re saying?

 

[hopkins]

@jeromelang, have you ever run your observation/theory by a DAC designer (like Andreas Koch of your Playback Designs) to see if they confirm technically what you’re saying?

Even if a certain DAC designer did confirm this, it could simply be indicative that that specific DAC has an issue. But to be honest, I don't even understand what problem he is trying to fix!

 

[jeromelang]

@jeromelang, have you ever run your observation/theory by a DAC designer (like Andreas Koch of your Playback Designs) to see if they confirm technically what you’re saying?

Are you really lacking that bit of self confidence in your own listening abilities that you need a person of high repute to tell you what hear is or isn't true?

You can always set up your own listening tests.

Start by making a playlist of track from a particular artiste whose music you are highly familiar with. Arrange the playlist so that tracks alternate from different albums. However make sure they are all of the same bitrates and sampling rates.

Compare what you hear against playing an album of the same artiste from beginning to end in their original sequential order.

Listen out for 2 aspects of sound reproduction:

(1) soundstage and imaging

(2) musical flow

 

[jeromelang]

ironies of ironies - when i first tried to acquire the playback designs MPS-5 (with esoteric based optical transport) more than 12 years ago, i was put off by the then local dealer's attitude that I ended up with the emm labs XDS-1, and then later the TSDX/DAC2X combo, and again much later the TX2/DA2. all the 3 emmy systems (based on esoteric optical transport) had retarded servo systems preventing me from using my own developed hand technique to circumvent the memory retention problem. So for 12 years i had to live with less than ideal data retrieval, the resultant satisfaction were always less than complete (however much the vaunted prowess of the emmy DAC sonic qualities).

when i sold all the emmies, i first got hold of the marantz sa-10 which uses the new m3 transport and with it's super-fast reaction timing, the servo was able to respond to my finger touches to serve up deliciously satisfying sound results. then out of the blue, the current dealer (not the same as the one years before) who is reluctant to import in the current MPS-8 for demo/display, called me and said he still had a demo-unit MPS-5 to clear and asking me if I'm still interested. I took up his offer, even though on the MPS-5, it's esoteric optical transport was supposed to behave in a retarded way just like those on the emmies and all the esoteric players/transports.

in the meanwhile I contacted the playback designs factory asking if I can buy the MPS-8 (which uses the m3 transport) directly. while waiting for the MPS-8 to arrive, i just happened to fiddle around with the MPS-5 and found that it's top panel buttons were able to react just as fast as the marantz/denon m3 transport that the sa-10 is using, and in stop mode, i am able to skip tracks to the desired track i wanted to play, so i am able to quickly cue up desired tracks to play without first leaving playback memory imprint - thus allowing the player to achieve very satisfying sound results - opened, spacious staging, pin-point focus imaging, dynamically effervescent, and smooth musical flow, utterly devoid of fatigue close to most vinyl playback systems, and bettering them in many cases.

this is the first time that i've ever experienced an esoteric-based optical transport behaving like this. did andreas make some servo control software re-design on it, regardless of how it inherently behave with its own in-house brand players and other companies using their transports?

and then I received MPS-8 just more than a month ago. horrors of horrors this thing does not behave like the m3 transport on the sa-10! it does not allow me to skip to the desired track while in stop mode. this means i can never get it to achieve the sonic quality level that i was expecting it to.

so what now?

use the MPS-5 as the transport to drive the DAC in the MPS-8?

I'm needing to save some space for a custom-configured bergmann turntable arriving in a couple of months.....

 

[Kingrex]

Ron posts videos of his system for his own amusement and thanks people when they respond. Bonzo posts for his own amusement and continues to post when others respond.

My phone keeps bringing me back to this. So I keep seeing it and thinking, what is Peter saying? What are you saying. I missed the underlying meaning.

 

[jeromelang]

The MPS-5 playing CDs driving the DAC in the MPS-8 sounds very much more musically satisfying.

Prior to playing any CDs, erasing the optical disc transport's memory and using direct-access method of cueing will reward the listener with unprecedented qualities like these:

- imaging has more defined outlines.

- there is a palpable solidity to the centre-fill image that leaps out from the woodwork.

- can perceive a full figure body with very stable centre-fill vocal image

- top-end is airy and well extended.

- clear separation between the reverbs from the main vocals and instruments
(thus NOT smearing the timbre of voices and instruments)

- there is an effortless ease to the musical flow that rivals, and in many cases, betters even the most stratospherically prized vinyl playback systems

people who are curious about this memory retention issue and is willing to take the time to check and listen for themselves, you can try this.

first, you have to have a player/transport that allows you to skip tracks forward while in stop mode. There are some ultra expensive players that don't allow you to do that. Hence, you can never ellicit the best sound out of them. Esoteric-based optical drives are retarded, while they do allow users to skip tracks forward, the skip buttons(or rather the servo system's operating software) don't respond quickly enough to finger touches, so they are also out. The playback designs MPS-5 is the only exception that I've found using esoteric-based optical drive and yet still able to respond quickly to finger touches. Naim players I vaguely remember have problems as well.

If you found a suitable player/transport that this is what you need to do:

(Here I describe the procedure using a transport/dac combo)

(1) shut down the transport/dac, making sure there is no disc inside the transport

(2) power up the transport, open tray and load in a disc, close tray, let it read toc and settle fully.

(3) power up the dac

(4) with 1 finger on the [skip forward] key and 1 finger on the [play] key, press them in that order in quick succession. The velocity of the finger action needs to be as fast as you would normally pronounce the word "city" in a conversation.

 

[hopkins]

Are you really lacking that bit of self confidence in your own listening abilities that you need a person of high repute to tell you what hear is or isn't true?

You can always set up your own listening tests.

Start by making a playlist of track from a particular artiste whose music you are highly familiar with. Arrange the playlist so that tracks alternate from different albums. However make sure they are all of the same bitrates and sampling rates.

Compare what you hear against playing an album of the same artiste from beginning to end in their original sequential order.

Listen out for 2 aspects of sound reproduction:

(1) soundstage and imaging

(2) musical flow

So you insert a blank track (that you could create yourself) in between each track, with the same rate/sampling frequency, and that miraculously improves the sound?

What about if you simply stop playback after each track?

We can't trust that our listening is not affected in some way by expectations of the test! The results could be simply psychological. So it is not uninteresting to get an explanation for this, if possible, or to confirm your findings with some form of blind testing, for example:

- make a playlist of two songs with an additional silent track in between
- merge the three tracks (two song plus silence) into one single track and create another playlist with that one track
- compare random playback of each playlist (have someone else choose which playlist is played).

Maybe get back to us once you have confirmed you can identify reliably the differences between the two playlists over multiple listenings

 

[Kingrex]

I pretty much only listen to playlist I make. I listen to some albums. I never noticed any difference in how digital sounds between a playlist or whole album outside the variation of source media quality. I never noticed the first or second or third song in an album has any change in quality for the worse or better. I guess I could go looking for reasons to dislike my digital and fabricate complex repairs for unheard issues. Or, I can just accept my digital is really enjoyable and keep using it as I always have. Maybe try and tune it with a a Jitterbug or 2nd switch. Those type changes seem to bring notable changes. Unfortunately I do have a small pile of devices as such that need to to to the trash as they went the wrong way. Others have helped and I still use

 

[wil]

Are you really lacking that bit of self confidence in your own listening abilities that you need a person of high repute to tell you what hear is or isn't true?

You can always set up your own listening tests.

Start by making a playlist of track from a particular artiste whose music you are highly familiar with. Arrange the playlist so that tracks alternate from different albums. However make sure they are all of the same bitrates and sampling rates.

Compare what you hear against playing an album of the same artiste from beginning to end in their original sequential order.

Listen out for 2 aspects of sound reproduction:

(1) soundstage and imaging

(2) musical flow

I asked if you had any technical backup of your theory from someone with a technical understanding. I guess not, since you chose go to defensive.

I’ve never heard anything remotely like what you’re describing. And I mostly play albums beginning to end.

But I’m open to to hearing discussion about this from people with more technical understanding than me.

Until then, I’ll pass on the tortured listening test!

 

[Al M.]

I asked if you had any technical backup up of your theory from someone with a technical understanding. I guess not, since you chose go to defensive.

I’ve never heard anything remotely like what you’re describing. And I mostly play albums beginning to end.

But I’m open to to hearing discussion about this from people with more technical understanding than me.

Until then, I’ll pass on the tortured listening test!

Never heard anything like it either. Literally unbelievable. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[Kingrex]

Never heard anything like it either. Literally unbelievable. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Hey, this is a forum. Its all true until you disprove rhe claim

 

[Rexp]

It all comes down to recording quality as has been said many times..

Here is a live stream studio recording of the track 'Swingin' (starts 3.13) which was released later on CD (below):

What do folks think of the difference in sound?

 

[tima]

Hey, this is a forum. Its all true until you disprove rhe claim

It is interesting when someone makes a claim or states a theory and then someone else comes along and says "Prove It", without offering any reason other than their scepticism. Then, when the person making the claim offers guidance/instructions for the sceptic to fish for himself, he is then called out for being defensive. If sceptics are truly interested in the claim or theory they should be willing to put in some equity of their own, otherwise they're just keyboarding at the claimant's feet for the amusement of seeing him dance to their demand.

 

[hopkins]

It is interesting when someone makes a claim or states a theory and then someone else comes along and says "Prove It", without offering any reason other than their scepticism. Then, when the person making the claim offers guidance/instructions for the sceptic to fish for himself, he is then called out for being defensive. If sceptics are truly interested in the claim or theory they should be willing to put in some equity of their own, otherwise they're just keyboarding at the claimant's feet for the amusement of seeing him dance to their demand.

Some skepticism is healthy, and we all look for "rational" explanations to what we experience because we are dealing with "sound".

I don't see how asking jeromelang to question the DAC's manufacturer about this is such a problem. I do this myself all the time (asking for explanations from my DAC's manufacturer). I don't see how asking him to do some comparative testing is either - I also do it all the time, if it is feasible.

 

[hopkins]

It all comes down to recording quality as has been said many times..

Here is a live stream studio recording of the track 'Swingin' (starts 3.13) which was released later on CD (below):

What do folks think of the difference in sound?

I don't hear any difference. You seem to make it a point not to reply to my questions, but I'll try again - what differences do you hear?

 

[rDin]

It is interesting when someone makes a claim or states a theory and then someone else comes along and says "Prove It", without offering any reason other than their scepticism.

More often than not, an instance of bad faith in discussion that is referred to Sealioning.