Why, oh why, does vinyl continue to blow away digital?

[wil]

Jerome has been making such claims for a long time, he is an observer of this type of phenomena. i respect that is what he hears, but years ago i tried to hear it myself, that process was not enjoyable, and decided to just ignore it and not worry about it. it's just not interesting enough to me to dive deep into.

the only response if you are going to engage him is to do the work to investigate it. so you are in a position to have more than a guess about it.

so you are not the first to cross swords with him about it.

i do appreciate when people do look deep into things. try to keep my mind open. if they say they hear something, i respect that listening feedback. does not mean i agree or have heard it myself.

If my system were doing what Jerome describes I would be very unhappy with it.

It’s curious to me why, instead going into great detail posting on the internet ( for years) about a phenomenon he hears in his system, that he doesn’t drop a note to Andreas Koch (designer of his Playback Designs DAC) and ask “what’s going on here?” Or, if the problem is not DAC related, contact his streamer manufacturer, and so on.

 

[wil]

Mischaracterising what somebody said is also bad faith

@rDin, And where did that happen? Where is the “bad faith mischaractersing” ?

 

[Kingrex]

I just tried it with HQ player. Put on a song and let it run through to the second song. Then I stopped the playback, then played the second song again. No change. What is very common is the issue of the second time you listen to something, you think it sounds different, usually better. Could be what Jerome is experiencing and attributing it to the gear when its psycho acoustic.

 

[godofwealth]

Listening now to a great EMI recording made in Abbey Road studio 50 years ago of short pieces by the Danish composer Nielsen. Listening to the lush orchestral strings on this recording gives me the goosebumps. Try Bohemian Danish Folk tune. The remastered version on Qobuz is more brightly lit, the hall ambience is much reduced and the analog magic is not quite the same. Still, it’s nice to have such great recordings available to stream. But there’s no substitute for the vinyl.

 

[Rexp]

I just tried it with HQ player. Put on a song and let it run through to the second song. Then I stopped the playback, then played the second song again. No change. What is very common is the issue of the second time you listen to something, you think it sounds different, usually better. Could be what Jerome is experiencing and attributing it to the gear when its psycho acoustic.

More likely Jerome hears things you don't, I would bet, unlike you, he doesn't think Stairway to Heaven on Qobuz sounds good.

 

[Kingrex]

Funny, had this on tonight. And agree, its way better on tape. I played IV last night. Lots of air guitar.

 

[godofwealth]

Listening to another great EMI recording of Mussorgsky’s brilliant opera Boris Godunov. This recording features the fabulous Finnish bass baritone Martti Talvela in the title role. Track 1 on side II is a lesson in analog magic: beautiful male voices set in an ambient space, soaring strings, children’s voices, loud brass, starting dynamics, yet it never once sounds harsh. A desert island disc. Hear this record to understand why vinyl is king.

 

[godofwealth]

To complete the EMI trilogy for the evening, we end tonight’s listening with one of the greatest opera recordings ever made, Puccini’s Gianni Schicchi, with the incomparable bass Tito Gobbi supported by the incandescent soprano Victoria de Los Angeles. When she sings the short but most famous aria in all of opera “O Mio Babbino Caro”, for a short while, the earth stops spinning. Has there ever been a more poetic call for love, when she threatens to throw herself into the river Arno flowing under the 2000-year Ponte Vecchio bridge? The stuff of legend. An atmospheric analog recording that begins with the relatives searching for the lost will of a deceased relative. The rustle of paper and the hustle and bustle around the room has you almost visualizing the scene. A great recording. Good night!

 

[hopkins]

More likely Jerome hears things you don't, I would bet, unlike you, he doesn't think Stairway to Heaven on Qobuz sounds good.

My own experience of listening sessions with others is that we don't really hear things that others don't but we do have different preferences and focus on different aspects. It may take some time and repeated listening to get people to agree on what they "hear", and for them to articulate their impressions in ways which can be understood by others.

If we just throw out general comments like "A is better than B" it is of little value.

 

[Rexp]

Here's the great, currently working Saxophonist, Doug Webb in action. Problem is if you only listened to his released albums you wouldn't know how great he is...

#mostdigitalrecordingssuck

 

[hopkins]

Here's the great, currently working Saxophonist, Doug Webb in action.

Here is a fun video of him playing 150 different horns!

Problem is if you only listened to his released albums you wouldn't know how great he is...

It's only a problem for you!

While there is always a benefit to listening to music live or under certain recording/playback conditions, the idea that you cannot appreciate a musician (or music in general) otherwise is absurd, and very unfortunate for you. I hope you can get over this at some point and learn to appreciate music again in whatever shape or form it comes.

 

[godofwealth]

Another evening of listening begins with Sir Adrian Boult conducting the London Philharmonic playing the music of Vaughan Williams (Serenade to Music and Symphony No 5). Listening to the roaring brass section on Track 1 Side 2, I’m struck by how old analog recordings on vinyl get the sound of brass so right (as my aural memory of many live concerts confirms). Too often (but not always) brass on digital recordings sounds harsh and emaciated. Brass has some real grunt to it, some heft and it’s not just shrill squeaking.

 

[godofwealth]

Vaughan Williams dedicated his Fifth Symphony to Jean Sibelius (“without permission”). Naturally we turn next to hear Sibelius’ Seventh Symphony, a one movement work first performed in Stockholm exactly one hundred years ago in 1924. Sibelius’ music always sounds to me broody and restless, evocative of those bleak Nordic landscapes in which Henning Mankel wrote his bestselling Wallander detective series. This recording captures the bleakness of his music well, strings muttering to each other with the brass occasionally chiming in and the tympani gruffly echoing their conversation. There are no melodies in Sibelius, just fragments of musical conversation that create a brooding atmosphere. We are far removed from Mozart’s musical depiction of Viennese life here. No, this is philosophy combined with music, one that asks what the meaning of life is, why are we here.

 

[Al M.]

Another evening of listening begins with Sir Adrian Boult conducting the London Philharmonic playing the music of Vaughan Williams (Serenade to Music and Symphony No 5). Listening to the roaring brass section on Track 1 Side 2, I’m struck by how old analog recordings on vinyl get the sound of brass so right (as my aural memory of many live concerts confirms). Too often (but not always) brass on digital recordings sounds harsh and emaciated. Brass has some real grunt to it, some heft and it’s not just shrill squeaking.

View attachment 132458

Great to hear how good the LP sounds, I can imagine. However, I guess it's time to do something about your digital if brass often sounds harsh and emaciated, and lacks heft.

Speaking of "digital" sound:

Thankfully and enjoyably there was some good sound at T.H.E Show. Yet I was taken aback by how many systems sounded thin in the midrange, tipped up towards the highs, and harsh or hard. On many of such systems there was also a nasty metallic edge that I have become very sensitive to. At the end yesterday I had severe "digital" fatigue, and my ears were bleeding. Today was better because we knew how to avoid the worst offenders. Now I understand better the aversion of some towards digital. I couldn't take such digital either.

But it wasn't just the digital. It was also hard and emaciated sounding SS amplification and speakers. On such systems the vinyl often sounded "digital" as well!

 

[godofwealth]

We come to end of our musical journey today with Tchaikovsky. Sibelius said “I see much of myself in that man”. We listen to Tchaikovsky’s famous Symphony No 5 with the unmatched Berlin Philharmonic under the baton of one of the greatest conductors of the 20th century, Herbert von Karajan. Listening to the opening movement, one is immediately struck by the similarities to Sibelius. The same initial broodiness. The first movement is subtitled Allegro con animo. Boy, does the Berlin Philharmonic let loose with the brass in this symphony. Normally controlled — von Karajan was famous for his ascetic control — here he lets the orchestra loose and they play with the abandon of Led Zeppelin. On my 105 dB efficient Klipsch La Scalas supported in the low bass by the huge REL Gibraltar Mk2 subs, dynamics seems limitless. Brass and tympani pound away. The second movement is all Tchaikovsky. We are not in Sibelius territory anymore. Tchaikovsky gives us one of his most heartwarming melodies. Boy, could he compose lyrical melodies! What a tune. It literally makes you forget all the turmoil we are facing with multiple wars and all the stresses this country is facing. Written in 1888, this symphony makes you believe in God. There’s a supreme being, music, that exalts humans. The final moment is an affirmation of the maxim “life is good”.

DG vinyl can be hit or miss, but here Gunter Hermann — the recording engineer — shows us why the Berlin Philharmonic under Karajan was the greatest orchestra in the world.

 

[Gregm]

We come to end of our musical journey today with Tchaikovsky. Sibelius said “I see much of myself in that man”. We listen to Tchaikovsky’s famous Symphony No 5 with the unmatched Berlin Philharmonic under the baton of one of the greatest conductors of the 20th century, Herbert von Karajan. Listening to the opening movement, one is immediately struck by the similarities to Sibelius.

Sibelius' 7th was written about 25 years after Tchaik died -- I am sure the Sibelius reminds you of Tchaik, not the other way round

(...) the Berlin Philharmonic under Karajan was the greatest orchestra in the world.

I don't wish to be argumentative -- but aren't you being a tad dismissive here ? Think of Szell's Cleveland, Boston with Munch, the Concertgebouw, Paris Conservatory, the Vienna Philharmonic... (to name a few greats)

Speaking of Tchaik's 5th (I share your enthusiasm for this piece), you might these performances interesting as well: Muti / Philharmonia, Szell / Cleveland, Mravinsky - Leningrad. Regards

 

[Audiohertz2]

We come to end of our musical journey today with Tchaikovsky. Sibelius said “I see much of myself in that man”. We listen to Tchaikovsky’s famous Symphony No 5 with the unmatched Berlin Philharmonic under the baton of one of the greatest conductors of the 20th century, Herbert von Karajan. Listening to the opening movement, one is immediately struck by the similarities to Sibelius. The same initial broodiness. The first movement is subtitled Allegro con animo. Boy, does the Berlin Philharmonic let loose with the brass in this symphony. Normally controlled — von Karajan was famous for his ascetic control — here he lets the orchestra loose and they play with the abandon of Led Zeppelin. On my 105 dB efficient Klipsch La Scalas supported in the low bass by the huge REL Gibraltar Mk2 subs, dynamics seems limitless. Brass and tympani pound away. The second movement is all Tchaikovsky. We are not in Sibelius territory anymore. Tchaikovsky gives us one of his most heartwarming melodies. Boy, could he compose lyrical melodies! What a tune. It literally makes you forget all the turmoil we are facing with multiple wars and all the stresses this country is facing. Written in 1888, this symphony makes you believe in God. There’s a supreme being, music, that exalts humans. The final moment is an affirmation of the maxim “life is good”.

DG vinyl can be hit or miss, but here Gunter Hermann — the recording engineer — shows us why the Berlin Philharmonic under Karajan was the greatest orchestra in the world.

View attachment 132472

Wait , what , a DG pressing with actual Dynamics ..

Interesting .........!

 

[godofwealth]

Wait , what , a DG pressing with actual Dynamics ..

Interesting .........!

Yup, DG occasionally came out with a fine pressing with real dynamics. Listen to this recording and let me know.

 

[godofwealth]

Sibelius' 7th was written about 25 years after Tchaik died -- I am sure the Sibelius reminds you of Tchaik, not the other way round

I don't wish to be argumentative -- but aren't you being a tad dismissive here ? Think of Szell's Cleveland, Boston with Munch, the Concertgebouw, Paris Conservatory, the Vienna Philharmonic... (to name a few greats)

Speaking of Tchaik's 5th (I share your enthusiasm for this piece), you might these performances interesting as well: Muti / Philharmonia, Szell / Cleveland, Mravinsky - Leningrad. Regards

Exactly what I said if you read what I wrote. Sibelius paid tribute to Tchaikovsky when he wrote “I see much of myself in that man”. Of course, as I wrote, Sibelius’ 7th was performed in 1924, whereas Tchaikovsky’s Fifth was written in 1888.

I’ve heard Mravinsky’s recordings of the Tchaikovsky symphonies. Sadly, in this case, the DG vinyl is too harsh for my ears. Muti is nice, but not in Karajan’s league. I might have the Szell on CD.

 

[godofwealth]

Great to hear how good the LP sounds, I can imagine. However, I guess it's time to do something about your digital if brass often sounds harsh and emaciated, and lacks heft.

Speaking of "digital" sound:

Thankfully and enjoyably there was some good sound at T.H.E Show. Yet I was taken aback by how many systems sounded thin in the midrange, tipped up towards the highs, and harsh or hard. On many of such systems there was also a nasty metallic edge that I have become very sensitive to. At the end yesterday I had severe "digital" fatigue, and my ears were bleeding. Today was better because we knew how to avoid the worst offenders. Now I understand better the aversion of some towards digital. I couldn't take such digital either.

But it wasn't just the digital. It was also hard and emaciated sounding SS amplification and speakers. On such systems the vinyl often sounded "digital" as well!

Exactly why I avoid attending shows. I like to preserve my hearing. Somehow, exhibitors and audiophiles feel that playing a system as loud as possible makes it sound better. Hence the term “loudspeaker”. I’ve heard too many screechy audiophile loudspeakers and know of what you speak. Combine that with steely strings on digital and you get my vision of audiophile hell. And to top it off, the early music movement got underway during the early rise of digital, so the strings were even screechier. Fortunately things have gotten much better in digital reproduction, but sadly recordings have not improved much. I see here in San Francisco how live DSD recordings are made of the San Francisco symphony: hundreds of pencil thin mikes distributed like confetti throughout the stage, probably all feeding into some giant mixer/equalizer managed by some intern. The results are predictable: the SF SACDs I have by MTT of the Mahler symphonies are pretty awful sounding. The old Solti Decca vinyl blows them out of the water in terms of dynamics.