Why, oh why, does vinyl continue to blow away digital?

[hopkins]

More often than not, an instance of bad faith in discussion that is referred to a Sealioning.

So we can't question any claims before we try it for ourself?
Nonsense...

 

[tima]

More often than not, an instance of bad faith in discussion that is referred to a Sealioning.

I never heard of that until now. Good call!
From your link:

Description​

The sealioner feigns ignorance and politeness while making relentless demands for answers and evidence (while often ignoring or sidestepping any evidence the target has already presented), under the guise of "just trying to have a debate",[1][2][4][9] so that when the target is eventually provoked into an angry response, the sealioner can act as the aggrieved party, and the target presented as closed-minded and unreasonable.[3][10][11] It has been described as "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate".[5] Sealioning can be performed by an individual or by a group acting in concert.[12]

 

[hopkins]

I never heard of that until now. Good call!
From your link:

Description​

The sealioner feigns ignorance and politeness while making relentless demands for answers and evidence (while often ignoring or sidestepping any evidence the target has already presented), under the guise of "just trying to have a debate",[1][2][4][9] so that when the target is eventually provoked into an angry response, the sealioner can act as the aggrieved party, and the target presented as closed-minded and unreasonable.[3][10][11] It has been described as "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate".[5] Sealioning can be performed by an individual or by a group acting in concert.[12]

From what I understand, you don't even use "digital" - am I correct?

 

[Rexp]

I never heard of that until now. Good call!
From your link:

Description​

The sealioner feigns ignorance and politeness while making relentless demands for answers and evidence (while often ignoring or sidestepping any evidence the target has already presented), under the guise of "just trying to have a debate",[1][2][4][9] so that when the target is eventually provoked into an angry response, the sealioner can act as the aggrieved party, and the target presented as closed-minded and unreasonable.[3][10][11] It has been described as "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate".[5] Sealioning can be performed by an individual or by a group acting in concert.[12]

Yes, good term, don't think it applies in Wii's case though, more prevalent on ASR.

 

[tima]

Some skepticism is healthy, and we all look for "rational" explanations to what we experience because we are dealing with "sound".

I don't see how asking jeromelang to question the DAC's manufacturer about this is such a problem. I do this myself all the time (asking for explanations from my DAC's manufacturer). I don't see how asking him to do some comparative testing is either - I also do it all the time, if it is feasible.

Scepticism is fine if it's not done in a vacuum.

There are sonic impressions people have that they discover and then share. If you are truly interested (big caveat) rather than dismissing a report out of hand or demanding a technical explanation or 'proof', why not participate and contribute by conducting what appeared to me as a simple listening test that was offered? Attempting direct experiential evidence of a sonic phenomena seems worthwhile if you are truly interested.

From what I understand, you don't even use "digital" - am I correct?

My my - how is this relevant? I designed computer systems for thirty years, I don't need to "use digital" to understand it. Clearing out memory or cache can uncover or resolve issues - it is not exotic.

 

[tima]

Yes, good term, don't think it applies in Wii's case though, more prevalent on ASR.

I had never heard of the term, but the Wikipedia account seemed spot on to me. I stopped looking at ASR some time ago.

 

[hopkins]

Scepticism is fine if it's not done in a vacuum.

There are sonic impressions people have that they discover and then share. If you are truly interested (big caveat) rather than dismissing a report out of hand or demanding a technical explanation or 'proof', why not participate and contribute by conducting what appeared to me as a simple listening test that was offered? Attempting direct experiential evidence of a sonic phenomena seems worthwhile if you are truly interested.

Keep in mind that the premise here is that the original poster claims there is a loss of quality across tracks of the same album in a playlist.

That is not something I have personally experienced. So what am I supposed to test exactly?

Common sense would dictate that the one who is experiencing the problem try to find out why.

I am a little dubious about his solution to his problem. So what? It would be in his interest (not mine) to investigate the issue more thoroughly.

And how is this relevant? I designed computer systems for thirty years, I don't need to "use digital" to understand it. Clearing out memory or cache can uncover or resolve issues - it is not exotic.

If I were to follow your argument, then you should first "experience" things before attempting to offer an explanation (clearing memory cache). Regardless, if the explanation you offer to "his problem" makes sense, then it also makes sense for him to report this to his DAC's manufacturer - this is a "glitch" that should be addressed by the manufacturer, instead of presenting it as a general deficiency of "digital"!

Read back jeromelang's initial post:

"Because of the memory retention problem, one can never fully enjoy listening to an entire album via streaming as subsequent tracks after the 1st track selected (not necessarily the first track on that album) to be played will always sound less opened, dynamically restrained, and less satisfying musically."

I often listen to the same tracks, within playlists or not, and in my experience they just sound the same. So the logical conclusion, based on my own experience, is that his DAC has an issue or that he is convincing himself that some weird solution is a cure to bad sound...

 

[bonzo75]

So the anti video people are sea lions beating a dead horse?

 

[morricab]

So the anti video people are sea lions beating a dead horse?

Logically or else you would have (un)dead horses beating sea lions!

 

[Rexp]

So the anti video people are sea lions beating a dead horse?

I think they might be beating something closer to home.

 

[Ron Resnick]

There are sonic impressions people have that they discover and then share. If you are truly interested (big caveat) rather than dismissing a report out of hand or demanding a technical explanation or 'proof', why not participate and contribute by conducting what appeared to me as a simple listening test that was offered? Attempting direct experiential evidence of a sonic phenomena seems worthwhile if you are truly interested.

+1

 

[Al M.]

Keep in mind that the premise here is that the original poster claims there is a loss of quality across tracks of the same album in a playlist.

That is not something I have personally experienced. So what am I supposed to test exactly?

Common sense would dictate that the one who is experiencing the problem try to find out why.

I am a little dubious about his solution to his problem. So what? It would be in his interest (not mine) to investigate the issue more thoroughly.



If I were to follow your argument, then you should first "experience" things before attempting to offer an explanation (clearing memory cache). Regardless, if the explanation you offer to "his problem" makes sense, then it also makes sense for him to report this to his DAC's manufacturer - this is a "glitch" that should be addressed by the manufacturer, instead of presenting it as a general deficiency of "digital"!

Read back jeromelang's initial post:

"Because of the memory retention problem, one can never fully enjoy listening to an entire album via streaming as subsequent tracks after the 1st track selected (not necessarily the first track on that album) to be played will always sound less opened, dynamically restrained, and less satisfying musically."

I often listen to the same tracks, within playlists or not, and in my experience they just sound the same. So the logical conclusion, based on my own experience, is that his DAC has an issue or that he is convincing himself that some weird solution is a cure to bad sound...

Agreed. There is no bad faith involved, just healthy skepticism in the face of no evidence whatsoever. From #1028 and following it seems that Jerome thinks CD transports have the same problem. I have never detected the alleged problem on CD playback either. And presenting it as a "problem" of digital in general seems preposterous.

If it really were a commonly experienced problem, you would hear about it on the internet from more than one poster, no?

So funny that digital skeptics right away rush to his defense, in terms of implying the points might have validity and should be "tested".

 

[rDin]

So we can't question any claims before we try it for ourself?
Nonsense...

Mischaracterising what somebody said is also bad faith

 

[morricab]

Mischaracterising what somebody said is also bad faith

If done intentionally, then yes.

 

[hopkins]

Here's a more obvious example of issues with streaming:

Same issue with Qobuz:
https://open.qobuz.com/track/246428958

The track skips constantly!

I wrote to Fresh Sound Records and they assure me that the CD (which I ended up purchasing yesterday) is fine. So at some point the files transferred to the streaming services were "corrupted". No one checked them...

This may be a rare occurrence, and a very glaring one. More quality control would be nice.

 

[wil]

It is interesting when someone makes a claim or states a theory and then someone else comes along and says "Prove It", without offering any reason other than their scepticism. Then, when the person making the claim offers guidance/instructions for the sceptic to fish for himself, he is then called out for being defensive. If sceptics are truly interested in the claim or theory they should be willing to put in some equity of their own, otherwise they're just keyboarding at the claimant's feet for the amusement of seeing him dance to their demand.

Maybe you should re-read the conversation. I wasn’t demanding anything. I asked, out of curiosity, if he had run this by anyone that had the technical background to explain his observations. That’s what I would do if I were him. He answered with an insult and nothing else. That’s being defensive.

All my listening experience has never produced what he describes. I think I would’ve noticed what he describes. That’s my equity and a good reason for being skeptical of his claims.

If this were true, certainly DAC manufacturers would be acutely aware of it and would be able to explain it on a technical level.

 

[SoundMann]

The audio industry has had over 40 years to get digital right, perhaps instead they should be developing new ways to store and playback analog.

My full spectrum, frequency-modulated optical analog disc format solves this equation.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I asked if you had any technical backup of your theory from someone with a technical understanding. I guess not, since you chose go to defensive.

I’ve never heard anything remotely like what you’re describing. And I mostly play albums beginning to end.

But I’m open to to hearing discussion about this from people with more technical understanding than me.

Until then, I’ll pass on the tortured listening test!

Jerome has been making such claims for a long time, he is an observer of this type of phenomena. i respect that is what he hears, but years ago i tried to hear it myself, that process was not enjoyable, and decided to just ignore it and not worry about it. it's just not interesting enough to me to dive deep into.

the only response if you are going to engage him is to do the work to investigate it. so you are in a position to have more than a guess about it.

so you are not the first to cross swords with him about it.

i do appreciate when people do look deep into things. try to keep my mind open. if they say they hear something, i respect that listening feedback. does not mean i agree or have heard it myself.

 

[SoundMann]

Regardless, even 20 bit resolution is apparently higher than analog.

This is just another theoretical claim that doesn't pan out in the real world.

 

[bonzo75]

To be fair to the skeptics there is a regular default test of this happening already. Every streamer listens to his second, third, and fourth etc song on an album. If they have not noticed it, it is likely not there. If they inject something in the middle and listen to the second track again and find a sizable improvement would be the valid test, but if they are not noticing a regular degrade, it is likely not there.