Why, oh why, does vinyl continue to blow away digital?

[bonzo75]

it primarily interests me to bring it up in the discussion when trying to counter anti-digital false myths brought up by certain vinyl enthusiasts.

 

[morricab]

I have not heard his vinyl emulation so I do not know how well he pulls it off, but it appears that he understands all the distortions and nonlinearities that occur to the signal during vinyl playback. Even if the emulation isn’t great his contribution to this thread is the list of distortions associated with vinyl playback.

Well, either he hasn't got it right in terms of what makes a vinyl "emulation" or his algorithms are not adequate because only on the most inattentive person might think this emulation sounds like vinyl. It's like when SS amp designers claim that their amp sounds "tube like". It never does and usually exaggerates the things that are actually not desirable in a tube amp (like being overly "warm").

As a corollary, regarding your slide deck on distortion...which was quite good by the way...you can only play so much with load lines to make one thing sound how you want. There are inherent distortions in active devices and circuit types that will still overlay their impact on the distortion patterns. So, I would argue that ultimately, you cannot make a single ended transistor amp sound just like a single ended triode...even if you strap an output transformer on the end of it.

 

[Rexp]

The only scenario where I can imagine that analog's added distortion would sound less obnoxious (note I don't mean more pleasing) is that it has a fairly high amount of 2nd, 3rd 4th harmonics in descending amplitude with increasing order. This could provide a significant degree of masking to other, higher order distortions that would otherwise be heard. Digital generally doesn't have these masking low order harmonics in any significant amount but does contain a fairly large number small, high order harmonics that can be detrimental to sound quality (creating a "synthetic" feel).

True noise is interesting because it is uncorrelated with the signal. It is possible to hear correlated signal below a true noise floor (tape hiss is a good example). So, even though the S/N ratio is lower than digital (although the Audioholics article shows that a good vinyl can have noise at -90dB above 400Hz), it is possible to hear signals below it. Noise might give some kind of psychoacoustic advantage but I haven't seen any research on this to either prove or disprove this assertion.

What I can tell you is this. Apples to apples direct recording and playback for R2R tape, Cassette tape, 24/192 digital and direct to disk lacquer of my voice sounded more real with the direct playback of a lacquer recording of my voice. I would not say that R2R tape (Technics X-2000) was that much better than the others (Cassette tape (metal tape on Nakamichi ZX-9 or Tascam digital recorder).

Interesting, was the Tascam a DSD or PCM recording?

 

[Alrainbow]

Have you heard Rivera amps ?
they don’t sound like either tube nor SS as they are hybrids
Same with arie cerate hybrids
Both not the same both to me extremely musical

 

[morricab]

Interesting, was the Tascam a DSD or PCM recording?

PCM 24/192

 

[morricab]

Have you heard Rivera amps ?
they don’t sound like either tube nor SS as they are hybrids
Same with arie cerate hybrids
Both not the same both to me extremely musical

I will have an Aries Cerat Protos in house in the next week or so...should be amazing.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Have you heard Rivera amps ?
they don’t sound like either tube nor SS as they are hybrids
Same with arie cerate hybrids
Both not the same both to me extremely musical

Would be the case with all tube hybrids.

 

[morricab]

Would be the case with all tube hybrids.

Not really...how many hybrids have you owned? The AC is not a hybrid in a conventional sense...it is a single stage with both tube and FET elements working together...somehow (exact circuit is not disclosed).

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Not really...how many hybrids have you owned? The AC is not a hybrid in a conventional sense...it is a single stage with both tube and FET elements working together...somehow (exact circuit is not disclosed).

Gee I don’t know 6 or 8, ModWright, Pathos, Rogue, Canor, Unison just to name a few brands. I am not going in the weeds on models. Also Amps, Integrated Preamplifiers. So am I qualified? How many have you owned? Great non answer. Cheers.

 

[morricab]

Gee I don’t know 6 or 8, ModWright, Pathos, Rogue, Canor, Unison just to name a few brands. I am not going in the weeds on models. Also Amps, Integrated Preamplifiers. So am I qualified? How many have you owned? Great non answer. Cheers.

5 or 6 myself. You thought they all sounded neither like a tube amp nor like a SS amp? My experience is that they can sound from very tubey to very SS like.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

5 or 6 myself. You thought they all sounded neither like a tube amp nor like a SS amp? My experience is that they can sound from very tubey to very SS like.

Not what I said.

 

[Alrainbow]

Let’s not argue lol. but still the two I mentioned are really different and very musical
Not tuby not clinical
just really good to me anyway

 

[Alrainbow]

Play this old apps

 

[Alrainbow]

I’ll never understand how a needle dragging on vinyl is possible or good
Then this proves we really need a long ast to go on digital

 

[Imperial]

I just wanna post this…
In case its not already Linked

 

[PeterA]

As DACs continue to improve, so do turntables.

 

[thedudeabides]

I’m curious about why some think analog sounds more real. Until that is discussed and answered, I think there is more to be discussed about this topic.

There are a myriad of reasons why our brain processes information (analog in this case) in a singular, unique manner. Art, food, cars, music choices, actors, wine etc. are several of many other examples. This results in a subjective preference to the item under discussion regardless of the reasoning / rational behind that personal choice. And the fact that others agree with that choice does not make the above false or invalid. Please explain what more (the individual reason supporting the why) you are in search of other than what has already been posted on this thread and numerous similar threads in the past.

 

[Alrainbow]

I totally agree and saying analog is better is just not justified if not more descriptive
I grew up on analog , but never had the knowledge or help to get beyond a start
no internet just magazines and stores
Stores were rude and filled with bullshit but who knew
so when cd came about it’s easy to place a disk
I had tape same as analog
bought tapes by mail
Remember when you joined a club. for vinyl records Same on tapes

 

[Alrainbow]

Tape was 4 track two sides 1/4 inch 3 3/4 speed
Still was better then my vinyl speakers or headphones

 

[PeterA]

There are a myriad of reasons why our brain processes information (analog in this case) in a singular, unique manner. Art, food, cars, music choices, actors, wine etc. are several of many other examples. This results in a subjective preference to the item under discussion regardless of the reasoning / rational behind that personal choice. And the fact that others agree with that choice does not make the above false or invalid. Please explain what more (the individual reason supporting the why) you are in search of other than what has already been posted on this thread and numerous similar threads in the past.

The threads always end up discussing preferences and differences, and basically the sides agree to disagree. I do see claims from vinyl listeners that they think the format sounds more “convincing” or realistic. I rarely see that opinion from the digital listeners. What I do read is that digital has improved and is now highly satisfying and enjoyable.

Do those who listen to digital believe the format sounds more realistic and convincing?