Why, oh why, does vinyl continue to blow away digital?

It’s most probably a tape print through as @Audiohertz2 mentioned. Tapes are stored as tails out. It means a print through will be a pre echo rather than a post echo which is more annoying.

I heard pre echo due to tape print through on many AAD cds.
You have it reversed.
Tape is stored tails out precisely so that the echo is POST signal. Any pre-echo is from when the tape is not in an "already played" orientation.
Tape print through is determined by other factors besides the orientation of storage. Notably, fluxivity level of the record amps along with how loud a particular sound is printed. Thickness of the tape is also an issue. You almost never get print through on a multitrack as the tape is a lot thicker than 2 track tape. But there is also different thicknesses of 1/2" and 1/4" tape. Also, the speed used is a factor. A 30 IPS tape will have the pre-echo much closer to the signal and be harder to detect than the longer distance of a 15 IPS tape.
A 15 IPS 2 track tape of very long length (thinner backing) and having the machine set up at +6 or higher flux level, with a loud event that pegs the meters and then rewound a few times to sit heads out, is a worst-case scenario.
Most of what we hear at home on vinyl is groove echo. It can heard as pre or post. Good engineers manually open up the pitch before a loud event to add land to protect against this. I have also gotten post-echo when the calibration on my lather computer was off and packed too tightly immediately after, say, a loud, cold ending. You don't get much audible groove echo unless the signal requires a large groove modulation preceded or followed by quiet. Like tape print-through, groove echo is always there but at varying levels and mostly masked by the program.
 
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Went to this hifi show today, what didn't surprise me was most digitally sourced rooms sounded bad, nothing like music, but what shocked me was most of the turntable set-ups sounded dull and uninspiring. No wonder there are members here that think vinyl is nothing special compared to digital.

sorry to hear that. but not sure it's telling us anything either. other than vinyl performance requires strong efforts to get results.

whereas digital performance is system and room dependent and we can expect digital players to have consistent performance of themselves, vinyl is much more variable especially which pressings are used. so unless you brought your own pressing and know the vinyl set-up guy in that room, it's hard to put much stock into expectations.

if i go to Axpona in Chicago for instance, there are a few exhibitors who do vinyl and do it very well. every year. and bring great pressings.

obviously know nothing about the history of this show or the exhibitors or the level of the attendees.....so who knows about all that?
 
sorry to hear that. but not sure it's telling us anything either. other than vinyl performance requires strong efforts to get results.

whereas digital performance is system and room dependent and we can expect digital players to have consistent performance of themselves, vinyl is much more variable especially which pressings are used. so unless you brought your own pressing and know the vinyl set-up guy in that room, it's hard to put much stock into expectations.

if i go to Axpona in Chicago for instance, there are a few exhibitors who do vinyl and do it very well. every year. and bring great pressings.

obviously know nothing about the history of this show or the exhibitors or the level of the attendees.....so who knows about all that?
Sure lots of variables, it's the first time I've come across so many under performing turntables though.
 
Sure lots of variables, it's the first time I've come across so many under performing turntables though.

Specific vintage turntables still seem pretty popular. Ron got good sound in his recent show exhibition with a vintage Denon direct drive turntable. But everyone talked about the speakers and amps.
 
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Went to this hifi show today, what didn't surprise me was most digitally sourced rooms sounded bad, nothing like music, but what shocked me was most of the turntable set-ups sounded dull and uninspiring. No wonder there are members here that think vinyl is nothing special compared to digital.

True dat!

Forget about the good old shows, 15-20yrs ago are long gone. Those were the days where things were decently set-up and you could get a better idea of overall sound vs asking price.

Now... ha! It's a load of bollocks! Nearly every show I've attended since 2017, have all used that mediocre Blue Sound node. It's actually not too shabby but very low end connectivity, plus the Net keeps cutting out. The sound was just plain awful on some very lofty gear: 640grand!!! Absolutely absurd. No point even mentioning the brands being displayed, it's quire embarrassing.

The last few shows I did attend, had TT rigs and they were just about ok, in the sense a pretty good idea about the performance/ sound could be established. But again, the digital streaming was bollocks.
I'm surprised the shows in Spore & HK are way better. They take the extra time and effort to make it sound good or at least within reasonable steps to arrive at their price points.

Anyway, it's all about convenience factor and pack as many exhibitors as possible. Ticket sales are more important than good sound.
Not the case in Munich though, that one's outstanding! Nothing compares.

Enjoy those finest tunes!
Woof! RJ
 
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This is the legendary Denon DP100M. Very rare and I am told extremely good sounding. I think it came from Peter, but I do not know if he set it up.
Still has an iron cored motor...like the old Technics SP10 series...none of which sound as good as a properly executed coreless DD motor...
 
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sorry to hear that. but not sure it's telling us anything either. other than vinyl performance requires strong efforts to get results.

whereas digital performance is system and room dependent and we can expect digital players to have consistent performance of themselves, vinyl is much more variable especially which pressings are used. so unless you brought your own pressing and know the vinyl set-up guy in that room, it's hard to put much stock into expectations.

if i go to Axpona in Chicago for instance, there are a few exhibitors who do vinyl and do it very well. every year. and bring great pressings.

obviously know nothing about the history of this show or the exhibitors or the level of the attendees.....so who knows about all that?
I’ve owned high end equipment for almost 40 years and have never once attended an audio show or exhibition. I’m sure it is essential for distributors and retailers, but for consumers like me, I don’t see much value there. It’s of course possible to see and hear a lot of new equipment, but I imagine I’ll be overwhelmed. I used to go to dealers when there were a few good ones left but at least here in the Bay Area, I’m not sure there are any worth going to. The few stores I’ve visited have been completely uninspiring.
 
A good friend got a Pioneer P3 Exclusive in mint condition - I found I would not resist buying one if it ever comes for sale near me. An impressive turntable, surely a vinyl benchmark.
I have a P10, which is the same drive but not the elaborate suspension.
 
Quick shout-out to the best turntable set up heard at the northwest show UK:
Vinyl Passion JM Carbon Elite £4995
Audio Mods 6 arm £1300
Audio Technica ART 1000X £4700

Although the deck is a modified Linn LP12, sounds far more neutral.
 
I’ve owned high end equipment for almost 40 years and have never once attended an audio show or exhibition. I’m sure it is essential for distributors and retailers, but for consumers like me, I don’t see much value there. It’s of course possible to see and hear a lot of new equipment, but I imagine I’ll be overwhelmed. I used to go to dealers when there were a few good ones left but at least here in the Bay Area, I’m not sure there are any worth going to. The few stores I’ve visited have been completely uninspiring.
I enjoy following your posts on your Soundlab speakers and I have never heard them although I have talked with a couple of people with a lot of experience with them I would suggest that even though a show environment isn't the ideal venue for hearing systems or music it does offer a very concentrated opportunity to listen to state of the art systems that provide a very wide range of sound. You might come away from that still loving your system but it might also temper your assertions about how excellent your system sounds in comparison to other high end standards. I also think it is likely you have tailored your system to the genres of music you listen to. As far as I can tell that primarily means classical, choral, and a dose of jazz. One of the nice things about the shows is you do get exposed to a wider range of music although it is still true that most of what is played falls into fairly standard audiophile fare. This is everything I heard at the recent T.H.E. show in Costa Mesa. https://open.qobuz.com/playlist/32705565 Anyhow, you might decide to spend a day or two at the next audio show that it is convenient for you to travel to and try to maintain an open mind about what you hear.

As for vinyl, well we are 60 pages into this thread that you started so I doubt I have that much to contribute. I will note that I have purchased over 800 records in the past 3 years since I decided to go deep into the vinyl world. The majority of those are contemporary pressings. And I would say my analog setup is at the middish level by the standards of this forum so I'm using a VPI Super Scoutmaster with a Supatrac Blackbird arm, and an Allnic H3000 phono stage. I've tried several phono stages and turntables before settling on this setup and have bought at least a dozen cartridges with retail prices ranging from $1000-5000. Clearly it would be possible to have a better system (and many members of this forum do) but mine is pretty good.

Having said all that, I can confidently say that contemporary vinyl is a very mixed bag. I think 20-25% of the records I buy are notably better than streaming through a reasonably good setup (Innuos Pulsar and Holo May KTE DAC with upgraded cords and power). Another 20-25% are better if you listen closely. 35-45% are essentially the same as streaming, and 10-15% are noticeably worse. And the first time I play a record I do stream at the same time and compare in real time level matched in order to form these impressions. Despite ultrasonic cleaning, many contemporary records are plagued by pops and crackle. I also don't buy the very expensive MoFi or AP pressings both for budget reasons but also because it is largely classic rock that I don't listen to much. Some labels like Rhino High Fidelity and Verve Acoustic Sounds are uniformly excellent but not much of my listening falls into the kind of records they reissue. Older vinyl is a whole different thing and if you can find quiet pressings at reasonable prices they often sound startlingly better than their digital equivalents. I mostly don't listen to older music so that is less relevant to me.

My conclusion after pursuing this journey more aggressively and thoughtfully than most is almost all aspects of audio are quite nuanced. There is no "absolute sound", preferences vary wildly, even with an unlimited budget high end systems often sound more different than alike, and there is always more to be had but diminishing returns are real. As for vinyl, despite its frustrations and limitations, I still find that the 40-50% of records I purchase that sound better than streaming justify the expense etc. but a blanket assertion that vinyl is better than digital is simply wrong.
 
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I enjoy following your posts on your Soundlab speakers and I have never heard them although I have talked with a couple of people with a lot of experience with them I would suggest that even though a show environment isn't the ideal venue for hearing systems or music it does offer a very concentrated opportunity to listen to state of the art systems that provide a very wide range of sound. You might come away from that still loving your system but it might also temper your assertions about how excellent your system sounds in comparison to other high end standards. I also think it is likely you have tailored your system to the genres of music you listen to. As far as I can tell that primarily means classical, choral, and a dose of jazz. One of the nice things about the shows is you do get exposed to a wider range of music although it is still true that most of what is played falls into fairly standard audiophile fare. This is everything I heard at the recent T.H.E. show in Costa Mesa. https://open.qobuz.com/playlist/32705565 Anyhow, you might decide to spend a day or two at the next audio show that it is convenient for you to travel to and try to maintain an open mind about what you hear.

As for vinyl, well we are 60 pages into this thread that you started so I doubt I have that much to contribute. I will note that I have purchased over 800 records in the past 3 years since I decided to go deep into the vinyl world. The majority of those are contemporary pressings. And I would say my analog setup is at the middish level by the standards of this forum so I'm using a VPI Super Scoutmaster with a Supatrac Blackbird arm, and an Allnic H3000 phono stage. I've tried several phono stages and turntables before settling on this setup and have bought at least a dozen cartridges with retail prices ranging from $1000-5000. Clearly it would be possible to have a better system (and many members of this forum do) but mine is pretty good.

Having said all that, I can confidently say that contemporary vinyl is a very mixed bag. I think 20-25% of the records I buy are notably better than streaming through a reasonably good setup (Innuos Pulsar and Holo May KTE DAC with upgraded cords and power). Another 20-25% are better if you listen closely. 35-45% are essentially the same as streaming, and 10-15% are noticeably worse. And the first time I play a record I do stream at the same time and compare in real time level matched in order to form these impressions. Despite ultrasonic cleaning, many contemporary records are plagued by pops and crackle. I also don't buy the very expensive MoFi or AP pressings both for budget reasons but also because it is largely classic rock that I don't listen to much. Some labels like Rhino High Fidelity and Verve Acoustic Sounds are uniformly excellent but not much of my listening falls into the kind of records they reissue. Older vinyl is a whole different thing and if you can find quiet pressings at reasonable prices they often sound startlingly better than their digital equivalents. I mostly don't listen to older music so that is less relevant to me.

My conclusion after pursuing this journey more aggressively and thoughtfully than most is almost all aspects of audio are quite nuanced. There is no "absolute sound", preferences vary wildly, even with an unlimited budget high end systems often sound more different than alike, and there is always more to be had but diminishing returns are real. As for vinyl, despite its frustrations and limitations, I still find that the 40-50% of records I purchase that sound better than streaming justify the expense etc. but a blanket assertion that vinyl is better than digital is simply wrong.
Well yeah, most contemporary LPs are sourced from crappy digital recordings so they're gonna sound crap.
 

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