Why Tube Amps Sound Different (and better) Than SS Amps

[Orb]

Ethans point is easy enough to understand. For example, I can measure the difference between one and ten feet of wire, but does that mean that it will result in an audible difference at the final output of the speaker....there is a point of no returns AND yes, I have and am on record to explain how power cables can cause audible differences. If one can not hear the difference between and one and ten foot piece of wire but measurements reveal a difference, does that mean that one is no longer a golden ear?

So what is your explanation about mains regeneration going by that logic and also Ethan point " The only measurement that matters it at the output of the connected equipment"
It is VERY interesting when one measures-analyses the pulse current of an amp (just even up to 25w) that is "connected directly" to house mains (quotes because the bespoke analyser must be inserted in-between) and then via mains regeneration.
Please do not bring the logic then back to saying you are only talking about cables as it also applies very much in this context as well.

And yes we are talking about mains regeneration where thd is comfortably below 1% for all harmonics apart from say 5th that could be 2%.
The current pulse difference in such scenario is very noticable, much more so than the voltage waveform.

Cheers
Orb

 

[Ethan Winer]

For example, I can measure the difference between one and ten feet of wire, but does that mean that it will result in an audible difference at the final output of the speaker.

Exactly. This is why "power" product vendors never ever show what happens at the output of the connected device, which is all that matters. Further, even if a difference can be measured, that doesn't mean it's audible, as you said. If one RCA wire's capacitance causes a roll-off starting at 30 KHz where it's -0.1 dB down, and another doesn't lose 0.1 dB until 100 KHz, both wires will still sound identical. Same for the difference between 0.001 and 0.0015 percent distortion. An AP analyzer can easily measure the difference, but nobody can hear the difference.

--Ethan

 

[thedudeabides]

Oh my. The measure versus hearing discussion again.

I've said this literally a dozen times.

No one seems to be listening to you AGAIN Mr. Winer.

Ever wonder why?

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

 

[Ethan Winer]

No one seems to be listening to you AGAIN Mr. Winer.

I didn't realize that science was determined by a popularity contest. A lot more people agree with my views about audio than disagree. I can think of maybe a dozen "Internet" people who despise what I have to say. Versus 1,400 fans and followers on Facebook who appreciate my writings and my approach to audio. When you write a book about audio science that's used as the main text in major university recording programs, please let me know.

I do agree that I'm wasting my time trying to educate people who hold what are essentially religious beliefs. I'll try to work on that.

--Ethan

 

[thedudeabides]

When you write a book about audio science that's used as the main text in major university recording programs, please let me know.

I do agree that I'm wasting my time trying to educate people who hold what are essentially religious beliefs. I'll try to work on that.

--Ethan

I will do that Mr. Winer or shall I call you Professor? What you call religion, others consider fact. Many folks write books that are not considered "references" but merely one's opinion and not fact. Of course, the author believes their book is totally factual. And we all know that if you can't measure it, the opinion is merely speculative and not factual. Which is why your response to this post will say it's not fact unless you can measure it. Correct?

May I suggest that you check your ego at the gate before you post. Humility and a willingness to respectfully consider other people's opinions are two traits I admire in human beings. Absolutists, such as yourself, fit those who generally believe in "religious" doctrine.

And I'm really glad you will consider no longer "wasting your time" on us poor, uneducated, ignorant, unenlightened, religious folks.

Have a great day.

GG

PS: And if you want to have a serious discussion about what you've done in your professional career / life versus what I've done to improve the quality of people's life and making this world a better, safer place to be, I welcome that discussion Professor.

That's the criteria I use regarding the true "value" on an individual.

 

[rockitman]

A lot more people agree with my views about audio than disagree.

Why don't you measure that assertion with a poll ?

 

[thedudeabides]

Yes indeed. That should serve as a "factual" check on Mr. Winer's claim.

But, of course, only Mr. Winer can initiate that poll.

What do think Mr. Winer?

GG

 

[Orb]

See post 689 please. I fully understand industrial power electronics Orb, atleast low voltage stuff (480V) but very little work in medium voltage stuff.

Thanks and I have gone back to re-read that, but it does not tie in with current pulse differences between normal mains into an amp and mains regeneration into amp.
In real world example I provided ALL but one harmonics are well below 0.5% apart from the 5th and that is only 2% although this is a side issue to current pulse but I am using real world examples; we are talking up to the 1st 15 or so harmonics with only one being at 2% while rest negligable, furthermore even then the voltage waveform does NOT look too bad but it is the current pulse that has large notable differences.
I also notice the Shunyata link someone posted earlier also goes on at length about current pulse.
Anyway the context was how you agree with Ethan that you only need to measure the output at the speaker (well you need an inline bespoke measurement tool connecting to both amp and speaker tbh), however no-one disagrees mains regeneration does make a difference but I doubt you will measure notable FR variations with existing tone related waveforms in the example of mine for mains/mains regeneration when all but one harmonic is well under 0.5% and that single one is just 2%, and yet the current pulse measurement between mains-amp will show why there is perceived differences - agree not how it changes the sound but correlates to the fact why it is perceived as different.

Cheers
Orb

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I will do that Mr. Winer or shall I call you Professor? What you call religion, others consider fact. Many folks write books that are not considered "references" but merely one's opinion and not fact. Of course, the author believes their book is totally factual. And we all know that if you can't measure it, the opinion is merely speculative and not factual. Which is why your response to this post will say it's not fact unless you can measure it. Correct?

May I suggest that you check your ego at the gate before you post. Humility and a willingness to respectfully consider other people's opinions are two traits I admire in human beings. Absolutists, such as yourself, fit those who generally believe in "religious" doctrine.

And I'm really glad you will consider no longer "wasting your time" on us poor, uneducated, ignorant, unenlightened, religious folks.

Have a great day.

GG

PS: And if you want to have a serious discussion about what you've done in your professional career / life versus what I've done to improve the quality of people's life and making this world a better, safer place to be, I welcome that discussion Professor.

That's the criteria I use regarding the true "value" on an individual.

I'm a bit confused. We're you asking Ethan to respectfully consider other people's opinions, or their facts?

Tim

 

[MylesBAstor]

I didn't realize that science was determined by a popularity contest. A lot more people agree with my views about audio than disagree. I can think of maybe a dozen "Internet" people who despise what I have to say. Versus 1,400 fans and followers on Facebook who appreciate my writings and my approach to audio. When you write a book about audio science that's used as the main text in major university recording programs, please let me know.

I do agree that I'm wasting my time trying to educate people who hold what are essentially religious beliefs. I'll try to work on that.

--Ethan

You're confusing science with pseudoscience.

Robert Harley's book outsells yours 4:1 in NA.

 

[thedudeabides]

I'm a bit confused. We're you asking Ethan to respectfully consider other people's opinions, or their facts?

Tim

Tim,

Both. The line between opinions and facts is on full display when one reads the posts on this and many other threads of this ilk and the disparate opinions / facts expressed thereof.

Suffice to say, what is one's person facts could be considered opinion by others and vice versa.

My point is to respectfully consider all perspectives as valid within the context of this extremely subjective hobby and not simply say "I am right and you are wrong".

Hope that helps to clarify.

And to respond to Mr. Winer's comment about science and popular opinion, one only needs to look at the debate regarding "global warming" to see the obvious (in my mind) political / social disconnect and the ability to resolve this issue in a responsible, pro active manner.

And also regarding Mr. Winer's assertion that he has 1,400 fans and followers on Facebook, kinda sounds like a "religious" following to me. To state this as a factual validation of his opinions is silly, myopic, and self serving.

GG

 

[DonH50]

Hmm. Nice to know objectivism is still dead on WBF, and personal attacks are not.

 

[Ron Party]

My deepest regret as well, Don.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Hmm. Nice to know objectivism is still dead on WBF, and personal attacks are not.

Don, I'm at a loss why and how you can endorse Ethan's old and tired tactics??? Objectivism from someone who wears his being booted off numerous sites as a badge of honor? No it's not this site Don but Ethan.

 

[MylesBAstor]

My deepest regret as well, Don.

Regrets for what Ron? Are you and I reading the same posts? There's hardly a discussion going on here because Ethan, as is his MO, refuses to answer any question directly. Nor does writing a book qualify as science.

 

[treitz3]

Subjectivism vs objectivism. A reminder to members that this is a classic example of a war which seems to bring out the worst in people. This is a clear opposition to the goals of this forum. Our goal is to have a friendly place where everyone shares ideas and information without the level of bickering and angst that other forums tend to create. Please post in a manner that reflects our goal or be subject to things you may not be happy with the end result of.

All WBF views, right or wrong, should be respected whether or not you or they believe that position or not.

Tom

 

[rockitman]

Hmm. Nice to know objectivism is still dead on WBF, and personal attacks are not.

What real value do objectivist only opinions matter ? That fact remains that while THD, Impedance (input/output), wattage output are area's of interest... given components with similar basic specs, they all sound and perform different. This entire hobby is subjective. I suppose if you buy components based on objective specs only, you can save a lot of money. Will it sound the best ? probably not. I will cut to the chase....it's all about money. Strict objectivists want to believe their thousand dollar amp sounds as good as Similarly spec'd $50,000 amp. It just doesn't work that way IME. You get what you pay for in most cases.

 

[DaveyF]

What real value do objectivist only opinions matter ? That fact remains that while THD, Impedance (input/output), wattage output are area's of interest... given components with similar basic specs, they all sound and perform different. This entire hobby is subjective. I suppose if you buy components based on objective specs only, you can save a lot of money. Will it sound the best ? probably not. I will cut to the chase....it's all about money. Strict objectivists want to believe their thousand dollar amp sounds as good as Similarly spec'd $50,000 amp. It just doesn't work that way IME. You get what you pay for in most cases.

I have to disagree here. The hobby is littered with gear that is/was high priced and performed sub par. Can we say Halcro here amongst many other pieces. IME, simply throwing money at the hobby is one good way to end up ultimately out of the hobby.( i'm sure we have all witnessed the many so-called a'philes who have done this and have exited) What I believe is more important is the enjoyment of music and of the ability to recreate music that satisfies us in our homes. Just IMHO.

 

[rockitman]

I have to disagree here. The hobby is littered with gear that is/was high priced and performed sub par. Can we say Halcro here amongst many other pieces. IME, simply throwing money at the hobby is one good way to end up ultimately out of the hobby.( i'm sure we have all witnessed the many so-called a'philes who have done this and have exited) What I believe is more important is the enjoyment of music and of the ability to recreate music that satisfies us in our homes. Just IMHO.

I'm sure you can come up with some exceptions. The general rule...money talks bull crap walks.....a man needs to know his own limitations....

 

[DaveyF]

I'm sure you can come up with some exceptions. The general rule...money talks bull crap walks.....a man needs to know his own limitations....

Please explain your logic as to how this relates to the previous posts.