Why Tube Amps Sound Different (and better) Than SS Amps

[Bruce B]

If the 6 feet of power cord concerns people so much, then why aren't they concerned with the dozens of feet of wiring inside the walls and the thousands of feet of aluminum wiring that carries power from the utility?.

Which is why I had a separate 100 amp run away from the house into the studio's Equi=tech panel and running JPS Labs in-wall cable to my Oyaide R1 outlets. The wire was crimped/soldered to gold spades attached to the receptacles. There's not much more I can do ....

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

We provide a decent cable for our amps but its a simple fact that audiophiles are going to want to try other cables, and it is routine for the stock cable to be discarded.

Ralph does this mean that you would send your amps out of the shop with esoteric audiophile power cords if you thought audiophiles would keep and use them?

We avoid the lightwieght cables and focus on the heavier ones, also keeping the length to 6 feet... and we play our amps in the shop with the very same cables so we know how they sound.

Or does this mean you're confident that your products live up to their full potential with the power cords you supply with them?

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Sorry to hear your amps are sagging, Jack, but that doesn't change the point. If the cords that came with your amps are contributing to the sagging, shame on the manufacturer. They shouldn't get any more of your business. We're not talking about midfi, here...you know, stuff designed to a pretty limited price point and expected to perform up to spec under "normal" conditions. We're talking about the (very) high-end, the supposed pinnacle of audio engineering. At those price points, if they don't over-spec something as simple as a power cord to be absolutely sure it will perform as expected, if there is any reason whatsoever to upgrade something as fundamental as a power cord, any reason to expect that upgrade to make the component perform better, they have failed. Not the most expensive caps on the planet? Designing to a (high-end) price point. A piece of wire that will not deliver the power required to run the component properly? Unspeakably weak. Deserving of contempt. Thank God this isn't happening, with the possible exception of a few wingnut skunkworks boutique operations. Thank God most respectable manufacturers will tell you, correctly, that they sent you a perfectly good power cord with your amp.

Tim

Who said it was the ordinary cords they were shipped with? They worked but they do not sound anywhere near as good as three of the 8 PCs I tried in my own system. The designer knows this but he is also a practical man. He knows his clients will most likely choose PCs and ICs on their own just as we are likely to try other tubes. He's actually saving the client money. I actually use the "freebie" PCs elsewhere (HT subwoofers). Personally I can't hear any differences in that application so I don't really care.

It really all depends. I imagine you could use any PC with equipment from the likes of Veloce or ASR that run on batteries. My CD player sounds better to my ears with less expensive PCs than what I use with my amps. It all boils down to a simple question we all have to ask ourselves. Does this sound "right"? When it doesn't, at least in my case, that is not something I can rationalize away. It's instinctive but the reasons why aren't always obvious. Jeez, you know, I WISH I could read a text book or just pick up a mic and be able to convince myself that all is well but I can't. Since I'm the one that has to live with it, why should I? I'm not a serial cable switcher either. When I found cables that I considered the least colored, the least attenuating AND at the price I was willing to pay, I've stuck with them. Have I heard better? Yes. I beta tested them. Did I buy them? No. Not in my budget. Hobbies are important but they aren't central.

 

[Atmasphere]

Ralph does this mean that you would send your amps out of the shop with esoteric audiophile power cords if you thought audiophiles would keep and use them?

I think what I would do is find a cable that did the job without the price tag. They exist.

Or does this mean you're confident that your products live up to their full potential with the power cords you supply with them?

Tim

It seems that way to me, but our customers are always reporting this or that amazing improvement with this or that cable.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Who said it was the ordinary cords they were shipped with? They worked but they do not sound anywhere near as good as three of the 8 PCs I tried in my own system. The designer knows this but he is also a practical man. He knows his clients will most likely choose PCs and ICs on their own just as we are likely to try other tubes. He's actually saving the client money. I actually use the "freebie" PCs elsewhere (HT subwoofers). Personally I can't hear any differences in that application so I don't really care.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think a good designer will send his product out the door with the PC that will let it live up to its full potential in the showroom and the listening room...

It really all depends. I imagine you could use any PC with equipment from the likes of Veloce or ASR that run on batteries. My CD player sounds better to my ears with less expensive PCs than what I use with my amps. It all boils down to a simple question we all have to ask ourselves. Does this sound "right"? When it doesn't, at least in my case, that is not something I can rationalize away. It's instinctive but the reasons why aren't always obvious. Jeez, you know, I WISH I could read a text book or just pick up a mic and be able to convince myself that all is well but I can't. Since I'm the one that has to live with it, why should I? I'm not a serial cable switcher either. When I found cables that I considered the least colored, the least attenuating AND at the price I was willing to pay, I've stuck with them. Have I heard better? Yes. I beta tested them. Did I buy them? No. Not in my budget. Hobbies are important but they aren't central.

...which means, of course, and my apologies, but I think you are convincing yourself of something else altogether.

Tim

 

[mep]

Let's talk about the fact that some companies are shipping products out the door with no PCs because they figure theirs is going straight into the trash or thrown into the box of wayward cables.

 

[DaveyF]

A couple of days ago, a fellow a'phile and I were discussing this very subject ( power cords). He made an interesting observation.... in the old days, amp manufacturer's shipped their amps with the power cord hard wired in. Today, that is considered to be the "kiss of death" by most manufacturer's of high end gear. However, he commented that perhaps it was simply the "in vogue" thing to do now and was perhaps nothing more than a "gimme" to the cable manufacturer's-- nothing to do with the ultimate sound quality.
Does he have a point??

 

[mep]

I just think it's the current reality of the market place. Many people who purchase high-end gear believe high-end PCs make a difference and they want to be able to experiment with different PCs until they find Goldilocks.

 

[DaveyF]

I just think it's the current reality of the market place. Many people who purchase high-end gear believe high-end PCs make a difference and they want to be able to experiment with different PCs until they find Goldilocks.

That's pretty much what my friend was saying. Question is whether that high-end PC makes more difference than a typical PC that was hard wired in back in the day. Does the inclusion of an iec ( or other connector) off-set the supposed superiority of the stand alone high-end PC?? My friend believes that it does...and therefore prefers a hard wired set up.

 

[microstrip]

A couple of days ago, a fellow a'phile and I were discussing this very subject ( power cords). He made an interesting observation.... in the old days, amp manufacturer's shipped their amps with the power cord hard wired in. Today, that is considered to be the "kiss of death" by most manufacturer's of high end gear. However, he commented that perhaps it was simply the "in vogue" thing to do now and was perhaps nothing more than a "gimme" to the cable manufacturer's-- nothing to do with the ultimate sound quality.
Does he have a point??

The amplifier designer does not know how is our room, what are our speakers, ancillary equipment and preferences. Surely we risk messing the sound of his amplifier using the wrong power cables, and some manufacturers want to avoid it any cost and prefer the captive power cord. But he also knows that several brands offer complete ranges of power, signal and speaker cables that are tuned to be all used in the same system. Why avoiding its use?

BTW the current globalization trend and certification need also had its part in having removable power cords - nowadays if an amplifier shows with the wrong power plug at some countries customs, most probably it will be seized and the shipper will be considered a dangerous criminal that menaces consumers security!

 

[microstrip]

That's pretty much what my friend was saying. Question is whether that high-end PC makes more difference than a typical PC that was hard wired in back in the day. Does the inclusion of an iec ( or other connector) off-set the supposed superiority of the stand alone high-end PC?? My friend believes that it does...and therefore prefers a hard wired set up.

Either than cost, what is the advantage of the hard wired setup? Disregarding the exceptional cases of people needing 100A currents, that are not those of typical audiophiles, the contact resistance of decent power connectors is minimal.

 

[microstrip]

I just think it's the current reality of the market place. Many people who purchase high-end gear believe high-end PCs make a difference and they want to be able to experiment with different PCs until they find Goldilocks.

Mark,

I hope I will read from you after you try the Shunyata power system ...

 

[Atmasphere]

A couple of days ago, a fellow a'phile and I were discussing this very subject ( power cords). He made an interesting observation.... in the old days, amp manufacturer's shipped their amps with the power cord hard wired in. Today, that is considered to be the "kiss of death" by most manufacturer's of high end gear. However, he commented that perhaps it was simply the "in vogue" thing to do now and was perhaps nothing more than a "gimme" to the cable manufacturer's-- nothing to do with the ultimate sound quality.
Does he have a point??

'In vogue'? We sorted out that this was an issue in the 1980s... So we've had IEC connections for the last 29 years. Not sure if I would call that a fashion. We were hearing effects of power cords that long ago. In fact when we made the MA-2, which was designed in 1989 and introduced in 1990, we designed it with 2 IEC connectors per chassis- one for each power transformer on the chassis. We also used and still use a larger style of fuse holder as we had figured out that long ago that fuses can affect the sound of the amp as well. We did all this to minimize the effects of the external and internal wiring of the amp.

I knew audiophiles back in the 80s that thought nothing of opening up their ARC amps to replace the power cord. Thing is, its not a good idea to encourage people to do that sort of thing. If they wire the power cord wrong and there is a problem, it could be really dangerous. So you put the IEC connector in there to head them off at the pass. If you don't, rest assured that you can loose sleep over the fact that the equipment you make is going to be modified by someone that may not know what they are doing.

All you need is some transparency in the system and these things become audible. And the physics are not that hard to suss out- although I do find it disconcerting that a lot of power cord manufacturers seem to have no clue why their cables work.

 

[DonH50]

Has anybody compared an industrial 8 AWG or better power cord to one of the esoteric brands? Any difference?

I understand the IR drop issue, in-rush current, and even the HF (inductance) argument though it's a hard sell to me given a 50 - 60 Hz line frequency. And yeah OK on noise filtering by the cord, but in terms of raw current delivery and IR (voltage) drop I am struggling to see why just going to a larger gauge (numerically lower) would not fix that problem?

And of course my system will not be transparent enough nor my hearing good enough to benefit (I hear that lot) but I am curious why power cords seem to be such a big deal.

 

[Atmasphere]

^^ Don, if you have trouble with the idea of the 50 or 60Hz, go back and reread my post. The frequencies involved are much much higher than that!

 

[Ethan Winer]

That is a power cord that is broken. One that is not performing it's core job of carrying sufficient electricity from the wall outlet to the component.

Exactly. This is even more troubling:

The other problem has to do with high frequency response of the cable ... the rectifiers turn on (commutate) only at the peak of the waveform, possibly for only a few milliseconds.

Two milliseconds equates to a frequency of 500 Hz. I imagine any $3 power cord can pass 500 Hz as readily as 60 Hz.

--Ethan

 

[ack]

Don, more to what Ralph said, take a look at this article posted a number of times before http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/shunyata_visit_interview.htm - impulse current delivery measurements among other things, by Shunyata; going to a heavier gauge may not necessarily provide the same. The graph of the Black Mamba CX HC is quite telling, and the reason I am not moving away from these cords until I see similar graphs for the newer Zitron and Alpha products and future ones...

 

[JackD201]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think a good designer will send his product out the door with the PC that will let it live up to its full potential in the showroom and the listening room...



...which means, of course, and my apologies, but I think you are convincing yourself of something else altogether.

Tim

I'm not trying to convince myself or anybody of anything. I either like something or I don't. It's really that simple.

 

[Atmasphere]

Exactly. This is even more troubling:



Two milliseconds equates to a frequency of 500 Hz. I imagine any $3 power cord can pass 500 Hz as readily as 60 Hz.

--Ethan

Sheesh. You'd think someone on record as so willing to debunk high end power cords would be willing to take some measurements to back up his claims... Actually I have seen spikes that are much smaller than just 2 milliseconds- they are quite in evidence at 30KHz and beyond. It all depends on how depleted the power supply filter caps are. Get out a scope and start taking some measurements for pete's sake!

After all, if all the power cords manufacturers are just taking advantage of people's gullibility, it should be easy to show that such is the case. You know, even a 3 1/2 digit DVM can tell you things about power cords so I have to assume that Ethan has never done any measurements whatsoever and is talking entirely off the top of his head, doing precisely the same thing he accuses power cord manufacturers of doing.

I can remember a time when it really bugged me that I could hear a difference, a consistent difference, between cords. It bugged me because the explanation offered by the company that made the cord was obviously baloney. Further, most of the explanations I read after that were too. But the differences in cords persisted so I simply got out some basic test equipment and looked for differences. I have to say that I am gobsmacked that someone like Ethan who is so clearly in the objectivist 'its measurable' camp would so disdain taking even the most basic of measurements! If you're going to say that a power cord makes no difference, please, go ahead and show us the numbers. I've already provided concrete examples on power cords that were not broken, that were rated for double the task asked of them (10A with a 5Amp load) and I can repeat that any day of the week. So put up or shut up.

 

[mep]

Sheesh. You'd think someone on record as so willing to debunk high end power cords would be willing to take some measurements to back up his claims... Actually I have seen spikes that are much smaller than just 2 milliseconds- they are quite in evidence at 30KHz and beyond. It all depends on how depleted the power supply filter caps are. Get out a scope and start taking some measurements for pete's sake!

After all, if all the power cords manufacturers are just taking advantage of people's gullibility, it should be easy to show that such is the case. You know, even a 3 1/2 digit DVM can tell you things about power cords so I have to assume that Ethan has never done any measurements whatsoever and is talking entirely off the top of his head, doing precisely the same thing he accuses power cord manufacturers of doing.

I can remember a time when it really bugged me that I could hear a difference, a consistent difference, between cords. It bugged me because the explanation offered by the company that made the cord was obviously baloney. Further, most of the explanations I read after that were too. But the differences in cords persisted so I simply got out some basic test equipment and looked for differences. I have to say that I am gobsmacked that someone like Ethan who is so clearly in the objectivist 'its measurable' camp would so disdain taking even the most basic of measurements! If you're going to say that a power cord makes no difference, please, go ahead and show us the numbers. I've already provided concrete examples on power cords that were not broken, that were rated for double the task asked of them (10A with a 5Amp load) and I can repeat that any day of the week. So put up or shut up.

You should ask Ethan to list the test equipment he owns. Let's see what the man of measurements actually owns.