Why Tube Amps Sound Different (and better) Than SS Amps

[rockitman]

Please explain your logic as to how this relates to the previous posts.

Logic ? Yeah, I know it hurts...but more expensive gear in the general sense performs and sounds better. Do you really think people want to spend more than they have to for the sound that rocks their boat ? In order to rock my boat and get the best reproduction, it costs some money.

 

[DaveyF]

Logic ? Yeah, I know it hurts...but more expensive gear in the general sense performs and sounds better. Do you really think people want to spend more than they have to for the sound that rocks their boat ? In order to rock my boat and get the best reproduction, it costs some money.

Logic never hurts, when it is applied correctly that is, LOL.
So, to sum up your statements and logic...the higher the priced the gear is- the better it is going to sound...am I reading your logic correctly, Christian.

 

[rockitman]

Logic never hurts, when it is applied correctly that is, LOL.
So, to sum up your statements and logic...the higher the priced the gear is- the better it is going to sound...am I reading your logic correctly, Christian.

Only a liberal could broad brush a more complex concept. It appeals to the stupid/entitlement America that is the growing in stature. Yes, 90% + or - 5% of the time more expensive gear sounds better.

 

[DaveyF]

Only a liberal could broad brush a more complex concept. It appeals to the stupid/entitlement America that is the growing in stature. Yes, 90% + or - 5% of the time more expensive gear sounds better.

Nice well thought out post, Christian.

 

[rockitman]

Nice well thought out post, Christian.

I don't beat around the bush. The writing on the wall and downgrade of societal values going forward is self evident. Pay attention...then again....

 

[DaveyF]

I don't beat around the bush. The writing on the wall and downgrade of societal values going forward is self evident. Pay attention...then again....

Please do expand more on your theories. I'm certain we would all like to be enlightened.

 

[rockitman]

Please do expand more on your theories. I'm certain we would all like to be enlightened.

that is against the rulz here. End of story.

 

[Orb]

Hmm. Nice to know objectivism is still dead on WBF, and personal attacks are not.

If this is regarding me; it is not a personal attack just questioning objective logic in that some feel do not need to measure current pulse from between amp and mains (just one variable example) as all we need is distortion/FR tone analysis on the amp output according to some.
I thought it was a good example of how that objective logic may be broken because mains regeneration does make a difference even when the voltage looks nearly fine from the house mains, and distortion/FR in this test context are usually minimal in their difference at the amp output with the existing tests; the context applies to both this scenario and also the discussion on cables being raised.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Orb]

Orb, I am redoing this entire post. Let me just say that if Shunyata power cable has an effect on the sound of a system, then they should at the very least, since they have their TDCP or whatever it is called as a repeatable source, take as much care to measure the output of an amp as you mentioned for current or voltage in a spectrum display and show the results before and after installing their cheap cable and their expensive one. Its up to them to do that, and I agree with Ethan, why not just do that. The audibility of that difference would be debatable but atleast they could show a result going out to the speakers.

Thanks Tom,
tbh I have no clue whether mains cable does or not *shrug* - much of the sensitive expensive gear I have worked with/on has not needed any very special mains cables but then these are not also working with specific audible range content-signals such as hifi amps-preamps-etc; that said the environments are not the same as the earth-ground/mains is better controlled than at a home.
I was just focusing minds that we do need to measure from more than one point IMO, and interestingly not necessarily the variable that many would consider; see how many times arguments happen regarding that mains voltage difference is small for minor thd or standard amp usage (say below 50w) but never consider current pulse that has much larger differences in these examples and IF this is one reason of possibly perceived changes.
Although I find it interesting Shunyata spend a lot of time discussing current pulse as well.
Going by your suggestion, how many times has that happened for mains regeneration measurements for audio (this is not just applicable to mains cables)?
The question pertains to context I am using where mains harmonic distortion is not excessive; however most of them only focus on output voltage and thd....Not very helpful.
In your suggestion you will not see much difference at the output of an amp in this scenario, even if they do change the sound.

And I doubt anyone here is going to suggest mains regeneration does not change the sound in many instances.
Cheers
Orb

 

[microstrip]

Logic ? Yeah, I know it hurts...but more expensive gear in the general sense performs and sounds better. (...)

As you say, in general it is true. If someone has more resources to develop and manufacture something it is expected that it will perform better. Surely we can not be sure that it is always the case, but consumers knowledge and market rules in the long term eliminate the poor exceptions.

As the notion of "sounds better" implicitly carries the preference of a community, people who do not share these preferences and do not understand what is the purpose of high-end sound reproduction can easily disagree on this rule.

 

[FrantzM]

As you say, in general it is true. If someone has more resources to develop and manufacture something it is expected that it will perform better. Surely we can not be sure that it is always the case, but consumers knowledge and market rules in the long term eliminate the poor exceptions.

As the notion of "sounds better" implicitly carries the preference of a community, people who do not share these preferences and do not understand what is the purpose of high-end sound reproduction can easily disagree on this rule.

I hesitated to get into this debate, as DonH50 noted in an earlier post, WBF objectivism is dead or IMHO dying, in the previously balanced WBF.

According to this logic there would be no Wilson or ARC or any of the cherished High End manufacturers : They can't have the resources of a Sony, Pioneer or Yamaha, yet they seem to produce gears that are substantially superior or to use the favorite expression here "sounds better" than products coming from any single one of those corporations. It is likely that the marketing budget of any of those giant corporations dwarfs the combined revenues of ALL the High End Audio companies.

The first part of your second statement concerning the notion of "sounds better" is true and I agree with it you until you state

people who do not share these preferences and do not understand what is the purpose of high-end sound reproduction can easily disagree on this rule.

?!?!! So the "sound better" is universal within the community of enthusiasts? What sounds better to you will sound better to all (most of) the members here? No wonder we have the exact same systems

And what is the purpose of High End Audio? just so that I be educated of what it is .. seems I don't fully know.

 

[microstrip]

I hesitated to get into this debate, as DonH50 noted in an earlier post, WBF objectivism is dead or IMHO dying, in the previously balanced WBF.

According to this logic there would be no Wilson or ARC or any of the cherished High End manufacturers : They can't have the resources of a Sony, Pioneer or Yamaha, yet they seem to produce gears that are substantially superior or to use the favorite expression here "sounds better" than products coming from any single one of those corporations. It is likely that the marketing budget of any of those giant corporations dwarfs the combined revenues of ALL the High End Audio companies.

The first part of your second statement concerning the notion of "sounds better" is true and I agree with it you until you state ?!?!! So the "sound better" is universal within the community of enthusiasts? What sounds better to you will sound better to all (most of) the members here? No wonder we have the exact same systems

And what is the purpose of High End Audio? just so that I be educated of what it is .. seems I don't fully know.

Frantz,

I feel happy that my posts seem to take you out of your hibernation, although your sniper style does not allow for a nice debate. Your remarks focus on my poor style, not the content - I abusively used the "resources" word in the sense of "materials and manufacturing effort" that you can incorporate in a single product or piece of equipment, not in the research. As the research cost must be split between the whole production, it is not easy to compute in high-end. But what Christian said is a general engineering rule - if you get more money you are supposed to supply a better product. Otherwise you are soon replaced.

And yes, in their diversity the high-end audiophile community has a statistical agreement in most aspects of sound reproduction. Some people are always wanting to exploit their divergence to denigrate it, it is part of WBF.

BTW, do you consider yourself an objectivist? IMHO your more constructive participation in WBF has always been in the subjective field.

 

[Atmasphere]

^^ High End Audio exists out of intention. It can't be defined any other way that I am aware of. Despite intention, so fail at it; others excel.

Quite right, that is why I have found that engineers in general (there are always exceptions) are unaware that there is not a good correlation. It requires a scientifically inquisitive mind to start trying to put the two together.

I musta got this EE for nuthin'. But I get where you are coming from:

This is why when I hear people from the engineering side of the equation making statements like Ethan's I just shake my head because it tells me that they have very underdeveloped observational skills. Of course human's can be fooled but that is also bi-directional and I would posit that people like Ethan and the great Randi are exploiting the other side of the coin to develop reputations as "Myth Busters". You put people under stress to make a definitive choice and their discriminative ability often shrinks or disappears. Not a big surprise because most people don't do so well under stress. Ethan, IMO you exploit this also well known "characteristics" of human psychology claiming that there aren't differences but perhaps you even (deep down) hear them yourself.

Comparing double blind tests in audio is not the same as with pharmaceuticals.

I've said this literally dozens of times: The only measurement that matters is at the output of the connected equipment. Measuring only the output of the AC wire is irrelevant. Since changes at the output of the audio devices are never shown, the burden of proof to "put up or shut up" is clearly on anyone making the claim. What do you have?

--Ethan

This statement is incorrect. You measure both. No wonder you have such troubles with this- your logic is flawed. To give you an example we used a common power cord I have seen plenty of times at audio shows.

We plugged it into an amp that is rated at 140 watts and set the line voltage to spec. Lo and behold the amp only made 100 watts. At this point its why: so we measured the line voltage at either end of the power cord and saw a voltage drop of about 2.5 volts. The Variac was then adjusted to compensate for the loss, so that the spec line voltage appeared at the IEC connection. Full power was restored.

Now that's a 40 watt loss in output, due to a 10Amp power cord that was working fine- was not broken. The amp draws about 6 amps. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that power cords do make a difference. The argument that its a cheap power cord and that's the end of it is a concession that power cords make a difference and that it is also a good idea to invest in one that does the job.

Hmm. Nice to know objectivism is still dead on WBF, and personal attacks are not.

As you can see Don, objectivism is not entirely dead. I don't like making claims about how something sounds without being able to back it up with something- a voltage, distortion measurement or the like. However what I object to quite strenuously is when folks like Ethan make broad claims that they can't back up with measurements, all the while claiming that they are objective about said 'measurements', which don't even exist! Such is disingenuous to the extreme and amounts to trolling. I called him out on it and he's got nothing- so instead he tries to turn the argument around- and so once again I presented some real numbers, which are easily repeated. I honestly don't understand why the moderators allow this sort of obvious trolling.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Logic ? Yeah, I know it hurts...but more expensive gear in the general sense performs and sounds better. Do you really think people want to spend more than they have to for the sound that rocks their boat ? In order to rock my boat and get the best reproduction, it costs some money.

The most expensive mechanical watch in the world doesn't come close to the performance of the clock that came in your phone. The simple logic of you get what you pay for is still in place, you're just paying for something other than performance. Does this apply to high-end audio? Absolutely. There's a ton of prestige appeal built into high end products. It is typical for an amplifier's case to be its most expensive component. The "look" of your Wilsons is a very expensive component (perhaps the most expensive component) that has absolutely nothing to do with their performance. The list is long. The logic is not simple.

Tim

 

[LL21]

^^ High End Audio exists out of intention. It can't be defined any other way that I am aware of. Despite intention, so fail at it; others excel.



I musta got this EE for nuthin'. But I get where you are coming from:






This statement is incorrect. You measure both. No wonder you have such troubles with this- your logic is flawed. To give you an example we used a common power cord I have seen plenty of times at audio shows.

We plugged it into an amp that is rated at 140 watts and set the line voltage to spec. Lo and behold the amp only made 100 watts. At this point its why: so we measured the line voltage at either end of the power cord and saw a voltage drop of about 2.5 volts. The Variac was then adjusted to compensate for the loss, so that the spec line voltage appeared at the IEC connection. Full power was restored.

Now that's a 40 watt loss in output, due to a 10Amp power cord that was working fine- was not broken. The amp draws about 6 amps. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that power cords do make a difference. The argument that its a cheap power cord and that's the end of it is a concession that power cords make a difference and that it is also a good idea to invest in one that does the job.



As you can see Don, objectivism is not entirely dead. I don't like making claims about how something sounds without being able to back it up with something- a voltage, distortion measurement or the like. However what I object to quite strenuously is when folks like Ethan make broad claims that they can't back up with measurements, all the while claiming that they are objective about said 'measurements', which don't even exist! Such is disingenuous to the extreme and amounts to trolling. I called him out on it and he's got nothing- so instead he tries to turn the argument around- and so once again I presented some real numbers, which are easily repeated. I honestly don't understand why the moderators allow this sort of obvious trolling.

Atmasphere - thank you. I am no techie, and would not venture into a thread as a contributor of technical information. But I DO appreciate it when you take the time, show the numbers and begin to introduce science and professional experience into these discussions and forums. I personally find it educational even if I am not coming here to 'study' but rather to relax a bit and enjoy.

I also appreciate that you have taken the time in this somewhat testy thread to lay down your no-nonsense analysis of power cables which helps keep the focus on information rather than 'barbs'. Personally, I have found differences in power cables, and in my own case, it was NOT by looking for one. But rather it was by walking into a room with a system full of mid-fi components...they sounded so good, I switched CDs thinking it was some special remaster. When an 'ordinary' CD still sounded FAR better than I felt it should have...I asked the Manager what was different about this system because there was imho NO WAY it should have sounded this richly detailed, effortless, quiet, solid.

He said nothing special...until I asked what 'that thing' was along the backwall. Purist Audio Dominus power cable. I was curious because that was the only thing I had never heard of before...no experimentation with power cables before.

He did me a favour and took it out...and everything collapsed back to exactly where I thought it should have been. A week later, I took one home and the rest is history. Not always as good an upgrade over stock (particularly in the case of CJ)...but I do like them.

 

[rockitman]

The most expensive mechanical watch in the world doesn't come close to the performance of the clock that came in your phone. The simple logic of you get what you pay for is still in place, you're just paying for something other than performance. Does this apply to high-end audio? Absolutely. There's a ton of prestige appeal built into high end products. It is typical for an amplifier's case to be its most expensive component. The "look" of your Wilsons is a very expensive component (perhaps the most expensive component) that has absolutely nothing to do with their performance. The list is long. The logic is not simple.

Tim

Sorry Tim...I don't think you have any valid experience with quote, un-quote Hi-end/expensive gear(Just like Ethan). It's not about the case, looks, prestige, whatever. It's about the sound. I stand by my statement, you get what you pay for in most instances.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The most expensive mechanical watch in the world doesn't come close to the performance of the clock that came in your phone. The simple logic of you get what you pay for is still in place, you're just paying for something other than performance. Does this apply to high-end audio? Absolutely. There's a ton of prestige appeal built into high end products. It is typical for an amplifier's case to be its most expensive component. The "look" of your Wilsons is a very expensive component (perhaps the most expensive component) that has absolutely nothing to do with their performance. The list is long. The logic is not simple.

Tim

the watch analogy is bogus. fine high end watches are built for art's sake primarily.....not to tell perfect time. the value is in the phyisical build quality and workmanship. the watch's workmanship has little to do with it's accuracy, except maybe in weather sealing.

whereas in high end audio gear case work quality does relate to performance, especially in speakers. finish quality and beauty of industrial design is definitely not performance related, but is a percentage of it's cost.

i'll bet that under $1000 electronic gear has a much higher percentage of it's cost in casework and aesthetics than higher end gear. and.....that cost is pretty low to begin with. the higher end customer gets more production cost percentage in it's price than the low end customer. and when you factor in development costs for high end products per unit the high end gear has higher percentage there too with low production run numbers.

 

[rbbert]

The watch analogy is bogus in more ways than that. The "clock" in a cell phone really isn't very good, it only appears that way because it continually corrects itself by referencing the cell tower time which is linked to one of the atomic clocks. Try taking your cell phone out of a service area for a day or so, then check its time before it has a chance to self-correct.

 

[Ethan Winer]

Ethan, as is his MO, refuses to answer any question directly.

More Fox News from you. I always answer everything. Please show a question on this forum that you believe I ducked. If you can't do that then you owe me an apology.

I'm going to make one final point here, which applies to all the threads I've been in lately, and then leave people to their beliefs.

Suppose someone you know well, who is not mentally ill, tells you they were abducted and anally probed by purple aliens in a flying saucer late one night as they drove home from the local tavern. They are adamant that it happened, and they reject any alternate explanation you offer. Do you believe them? If not, why not?

At what point do you conclude their perception is flawed, and assume there must be another explanation even though they're certain of their experience? Now change "certain they were anally probed" to "certain they heard a difference between two measurably competent AC power wires."

You're welcome.

--Ethan

 

[BlueFox]

I'm going to make one final point here, which applies to all the threads I've been in lately, and then leave people to their beliefs.

Suppose someone you know well, who is not mentally ill, tells you they were abducted and anally probed by purple aliens in a flying saucer late one night as they drove home from the local tavern. They are adamant that it happened, and they reject any alternate explanation you offer. Do you believe them? If not, why not?

At what point do you conclude their perception is flawed, and assume there must be another explanation even though they're certain of their experience? Now change "certain they were anally probed" to "certain they heard a difference between two measurably competent AC power wires."

Your poor analogy might hold up if there was one person claiming power cords made a difference, but falls apart when there are hundreds of thousands, maybe millions worldwide, claiming power cords make a difference, and an entire industry is built on that fact. At what point do you stop and admit you are wrong?