Wilson Audio Submerge Subwoofer

[Johan K]

had the Krell EVO-707 processor twice...how do u stream 4K ?

Vision from the media player to the projector.
Audio from the media player to the EVO-707.
Simple…

 

[Zeotrope]

So? As with almost everything in this subjective hobby each view has its adherents and proponents.

“So”? So Wilson should have made this an option. I don’t understand why you seem to be arguing against this. I happen to agree with PS Audio and REL (as do you), that high level inputs are better when integrating a sub with existing speakers.
For a $30K+ sub it’s unacceptable. It’s long been known that Wilson rebadages subs in their lower end line, and I suspect this is a rebadged plate amp and driver as well. They should at least rebadge an amp with high level inputs, or add their own, which is dirt cheap and simple (add ~100K resistors and connect to low level inputs).
Look- I own Wilson speakers so I do like the brand, but I’m going to call them out on a bad product when I see it.

 

[Zeotrope]

The ultimate digital sub integration is via Trinnov, even more so now with their new subwoofer management:

Trinnov | Guidelines for Subwoofers Layouts & Optimal WaveForming&trade

Guidelines for Subwoofers Layouts & Optimal WaveForming™ Performance

www.trinnov.com

 

[Ron Resnick]

The ultimate digital sub integration is via Trinnov, even more so now with their new subwoofer management:

Trinnov | Guidelines for Subwoofers Layouts & Optimal WaveForming&trade

Guidelines for Subwoofers Layouts & Optimal WaveForming™ Performance

www.trinnov.com

For plenty of people running a full range analog signal through DSP is totally anathema. I vote for not relitigating the whole DSP thing.

 

[Zeotrope]

For plenty of people running a full range analog signal through DSP is totally anathema. I vote for not relitigating the whole DSP thing.

I agree. That's why I wrote 'for digital' sources . I also don't like converting an analog signal to digital; but if it's already digital, why not?

 

[itay123]

Vision from the media player to the projector.
Audio from the media player to the EVO-707.
Simple…

What player do you have?

at the time, I was thinking about the Krell HDMI 4K HDR Switcher
Have you tried it?

 

[itay123]

For plenty of people running a full range analog signal through DSP is totally anathema. I vote for not relitigating the whole DSP thing.

I agree. That's why I wrote 'for digital' sources . I also don't like converting an analog signal to digital; but if it's already digital, why not?

Even with DIGITAL I wasn't too impressed when I listened to 2CH.
When I had Trinnov alt16 at the time,
but I had a completely different setup,
I'd love to try again.

 

[Zeotrope]

Even with DIGITAL I wasn't too impressed when I listened to 2CH.
When I had Trinnov alt16 at the time,
but I had a completely different setup,
I'd love to try again.

Right. I don’t use the Trinnov for 2ch music at all, only for multi-channel movies.

 

[sigbergaudio]

“So”? So Wilson should have made this an option. I don’t understand why you seem to be arguing against this. I happen to agree with PS Audio and REL (as do you), that high level inputs are better when integrating a sub with existing speakers.
For a $30K+ sub it’s unacceptable. It’s long been known that Wilson rebadages subs in their lower end line, and I suspect this is a rebadged plate amp and driver as well. They should at least rebadge an amp with high level inputs, or add their own, which is dirt cheap and simple (add ~100K resistors and connect to low level inputs).
Look- I own Wilson speakers so I do like the brand, but I’m going to call them out on a bad product when I see it.

Conspiracy theory: The idea of recommending high level outputs is due to the fact that REL at least originally had many customers with systems where this was the only option. The follow-up recommendation (for the same reason) is to not high pass the speakers and just use the sub to complement the very lowest octave while the speakers still played full-range.

In reality, and with more modern systems, the clearly superior route is to connect the subwoofer(s) with XLR or RCA, and also high pass the speakers. This way you can improve the dynamics of the speakers and utilize the subwoofers to enable a more even bass response in a wider frequency range (at least up to 80-100hz).

 

[Zeotrope]

In reality, and with more modern systems, the clearly superior route is to connect the subwoofer(s) with XLR or RCA, and also high pass the speakers. This way you can improve the dynamics of the speakers and utilize the subwoofers to enable a more even bass response in a wider frequency range (at least up to 80-100hz).

How do you mean use both high and low level? Won’t that send the same signal x2?

 

[sigbergaudio]

How do you mean use both high and low level? Won’t that send the same signal x2?

Sorry for being unclear. With "high pass the speaker" I mean to have a crossover that roll off the mains at for instance 80hz, allowing the subwoofers to play up to that frequency. As opposed to subwoofers only covering the lowest octave (to avoid overlap with the mains).

So only low level outputs, and do not send full range to the speakers. Bass to the subs, the rest to the speakers.

 

[sbo6]

+1
The most seamless way to blend a sub with another speaker(s) is by using the high level inputs. It’s disappointing that Wilson didn’t include HL inputs, especially at this price point.

Can you help me understand why you believe this to be so?

 

[sbo6]

Paul McGowan at PS Audio has talked about this before. Looks like REL also recommends the high level (speaker cable) inputs to a sub. This way the tonal characteristics of the amp feeding the main speakers is maintained.

Wouldn't it be great if this was coupled with an actual comparison?

Well, I've done it, several times with different systems and I can tell you in both cases, whether high or low level signals to your sub make no sonic difference. I wish there was some "sonic amp signature benefit" but there simply is not. Both sound identical.

Electrically, it makes more sense that having the signal traverse through an additional component (amplifier) and then traverse through a step - down "system" would, if anything add coloration and distortion and as such, the low output approach would be sonically superior.

 

[Ron Resnick]

In reality, and with more modern systems, the clearly superior route is to connect the subwoofer(s) with XLR or RCA, and also high pass the speakers.

The most seamless way to blend a sub with another speaker(s) is by using the high level inputs.

Both of these views reflect personal opinion and preference, not objective fact. Both of these statements cannot be correct.

On the question of whether it is best to use high-level input or low-level input there is plenty of dogma, but there is no rule of general applicability.

 

[sbo6]

On the question of whether it is best to use high-level input or low-level input there is plenty of dogma, but there is no rule of general applicability.

Unless of course, someone directly compared both methods ;-)

 

[sigbergaudio]

Both of these views reflect personal opinion and preference, not objective fact. Both of these statements cannot be correct.

On the question of whether it is best to use high-level input or low-level input there is plenty of dogma, but there is no rule of general applicability.

If the main goal is the cleanest possible signal, it's an objective fact that a low level signal from the preamp will be cleaner and have less distortion, as opposed to amplifying the signal twice. It is also the only way to get proper bass management.

If the main goal is to pick up coloration (aka sound signature) from the power amplifier, and send that onwards to the subwoofer, this is only possible via the high level connection.

 

[sbo6]

If the main goal is the cleanest possible signal, it's an objective fact that a low level signal from the preamp will be cleaner and have less distortion, as opposed to amplifying the signal twice. It is also the only way to get proper bass management.

If the main goal is to pick up coloration (aka sound signature) from the power amplifier, and send that onwards to the subwoofer, this is only possible via the high level connection.

Agreed. The only downside to using a low - level signal might be the additional load on your preamp. The amp sound signature benefit which IME I've never heard nor read as verified is a fallacy.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Agreed. The only downside to using a low - level signal might be the additional load on your preamp. The amp sound signature benefit which IME I've never heard nor read as verified is a fallacy.

Well, technically it isn't a fallacy, but in practice it is.

Technically, if the power amplifier has coloration within the frequency band that the subwoofer is reproducing, it will be retained when using the high level inputs.

In practice; When using high level inputs, people will typically cross over a subwoofer very low, say 40-60hz. Which means the subwoofer is playing 1-1.5 octaves at best. There will not be any meaningful deviation to the signal from a power amplifier within such a narrow band. And certainly not to the extent that it will affect how well it blends with the mains that are powered by the same amplifier.

 

[sbo6]

There will not be any meaningful deviation to the signal from a power amplifier within such a narrow band. And certainly not to the extent that it will affect how well it blends with the mains that are powered by the same amplifier.

And that's why there's little to no sonic difference based on how the signal is applied, high or low, through the amp or not IMO.

 

[Elliot G.]

Paul McGowan at PS Audio has talked about this before. Looks like REL also recommends the high level (speaker cable) inputs to a sub. This way the tonal characteristics of the amp feeding the main speakers is maintained.

Couldn’t disagree more but this is not a universal axiom since all subs are not created equal.