Windsor Hifi Show - simple systems ruled

[bonzo75]

Hi-Fi News has just popped through the door and has quite a bit of coverage of the show. Looks good should have gone.

Can't see Ked in any of the photos so not sure he really went

I bet my coverage is better, and you won't see HiFi news in any of my pics

 

[KeithR]

You mentioned the KR Audio but it does not have a dominant 3rd harmonic...all KRs have a dominant 2nd harmonic with a nice exponential decay. The one that I saw from KR that had the best measurements was actually the KR VA340i, which has a 300B XLS output tube. That had a nearly ideal harmonic distribution and sounds rather wonderful. The VA350i should be quite similar because the amp design is very similar. They don't sound exactly alike because the output tubes have different characteristics and the output transformers are not going to be the same either but they are close enough to easily tell the family relationship.

Sorry, was reading old stereophile measurements but that may be incorrect. I thought with the SS input stage, it might be more 3rd harmonic in general and hence less "warmth."

I heard the LM Audio 501 (KT120 p/p), the huge 219 845 SET (which I believe you've heard), as well as Audion Black Shadows (w/ 845B tubes) yesterday at length. The first two were on my speakers (Devore Gibbon X), the latter on the Zu Definitions (my former speakers).

The SETs have a holography that is clearly unique, and for the first 30 minutes is pretty intimidating - but after that, I close my eyes and feel like I'm swimming in it which I find very distracting. I found the LM gear fairly soft and sluggish - particularly on electronica like Trentemoller. I guess if vocals are your thing, maybe its a great personality match, but on jazzy electronica it felt slow and on classical, not particularly dynamic. Bass was bigger on the 501 of course, but it wasn't particularly tight either. The 219 was a better sounding amp in general (and more expensive) and I felt more detailed with instruments that were far more 3D in space. I clearly thought like I was missing information on the 501 - but thats only a $4450 amp. I have heard Shindo gear on the Devores before at the same dealer and came away much more impressed than either amp. Of course, Shindo gear costs double as well.

Meters on the 219 were mostly loafing between 5-10 watts with 20-25 watt peaks, so probably some compression going on as well. The Devores are 92db into a very flat 8 ohms, so an easy load.

Re: the Audions, it was a pretty midrange focused sound with a slightly rolled off treble and fast bass. Sounded quite nice on some older 50s/60s/70s recordings and more vivid/dynamic than the LM gear (Zus are also much more efficient). But it definitely has a "sound" if you know what I mean and had some of the same distractions I experienced all day.

 

[morricab]

Sorry, was reading old stereophile measurements but that may be incorrect. I thought with the SS input stage, it might be more 3rd harmonic in general and hence less "warmth."

I heard the LM Audio 501 (KT120 p/p), the huge 219 845 SET (which I believe you've heard), as well as Audion Black Shadows (w/ 845B tubes) yesterday at length. The first two were on my speakers (Devore Gibbon X), the latter on the Zu Definitions (my former speakers).

The SETs have a holography that is clearly unique, and for the first 30 minutes is pretty intimidating - but after that, I close my eyes and feel like I'm swimming in it which I find very distracting. I found the LM gear fairly soft and sluggish - particularly on electronica like Trentemoller. I guess if vocals are your thing, maybe its a great personality match, but on jazzy electronica it felt slow and on classical, not particularly dynamic. Bass was bigger on the 501 of course, but it wasn't particularly tight either. The 219 was a better sounding amp in general (and more expensive) and I felt more detailed with instruments that were far more 3D in space. I clearly thought like I was missing information on the 501 - but thats only a $4450 amp. I have heard Shindo gear on the Devores before at the same dealer and came away much more impressed than either amp. Of course, Shindo gear costs double as well.

Meters on the 219 were mostly loafing between 5-10 watts with 20-25 watt peaks, so probably some compression going on as well. The Devores are 92db into a very flat 8 ohms, so an easy load.

Re: the Audions, it was a pretty midrange focused sound with a slightly rolled off treble and fast bass. Sounded quite nice on some older 50s/60s/70s recordings and more vivid/dynamic than the LM gear (Zus are also much more efficient). But it definitely has a "sound" if you know what I mean and had some of the same distractions I experienced all day.

Dominant odd harmonics is more a function of topology. MOSFETs make predominantly even order harmonics as single ended devices based on their transfer funtion, which is basically quadratic. Push/pull cancels even harmonics out to one degree or another.

I haven't heard any LM amps except the 219, which I thought was pretty good but a bit overly warm sounding. KR, NAT, Ayon and Aries Cerat are more linear sounding amps but with still the cohernece and 3d imgaing and soundstaging.

The Audions sound not too bad but I like a SET to still have extended treble. The Aries Cerat Diana, for example has a bandwidth up to 100Khz. NATs go out to about 50Khz or so. You don't get rolled off highs but you also don't get exaggerated highs like a lot of other amps are delivering. That is why good SETs have such a 3d effect because the lack of HF hash that destroys imaging and soundstage.

 

[KeithR]

Dominant odd harmonics is more a function of topology. MOSFETs make predominantly even order harmonics as single ended devices based on their transfer funtion, which is basically quadratic. Push/pull cancels even harmonics out to one degree or another.

I haven't heard any LM amps except the 219, which I thought was pretty good but a bit overly warm sounding. KR, NAT, Ayon and Aries Cerat are more linear sounding amps but with still the cohernece and 3d imgaing and soundstaging.

The Audions sound not too bad but I like a SET to still have extended treble. The Aries Cerat Diana, for example has a bandwidth up to 100Khz. NATs go out to about 50Khz or so. You don't get rolled off highs but you also don't get exaggerated highs like a lot of other amps are delivering. That is why good SETs have such a 3d effect because the lack of HF hash that destroys imaging and soundstage.

That's interesting as NAT is commonly mentioned as "dark"

On Audion, it's more a factor he loves 845B tubes which I feel truncate treble a bit (and he thinks the treble I like is exaggerated/unnatural - so you guys may have a lot in common). I've heard 845Cs on the amp which definitely has more treble spray, but at the expense of low end. He's had pretty much every 845 amp in his house, as people love to bring stuff over to compare. He's not a fan of KR due to the SS input stage, but honestly we tend to disagree on amps.

 

[morricab]

That's interesting as NAT is commonly mentioned as "dark"

On Audion, it's more a factor he loves 845B tubes which I feel truncate treble a bit (and he thinks the treble I like is exaggerated/unnatural - so you guys may have a lot in common). I've heard 845Cs on the amp which definitely has more treble spray, but at the expense of low end. He's had pretty much every 845 amp in his house, as people love to bring stuff over to compare. He's not a fan of KR due to the SS input stage, but honestly we tend to disagree on amps.

Well, has he actually heard a KR or is it a bias against transistors?

I have not yet heard an 845 based amp that I would really want to live with... the all seem a bit overly warm...even the best ones. That is why I passed on the LM219.

I currently have at home a pair of 6c33c monos, an Ayon Crossfire with one 62b per channel, Ayon Vulcan Evo monos with two 62bs per mono and JJ 322 with two 300b per channel. I also have the Aries Cerat Diana.

The warmest are the 6c33c amps but still less so than the 845 amps I have heard.

 

[KeithR]

Well, has he actually heard a KR or is it a bias against transistors?

I have not yet heard an 845 based amp that I would really want to live with... the all seem a bit overly warm...even the best ones. That is why I passed on the LM219.

The warmest are the 6c33c amps but still less so than the 845 amps I have heard.

No, he's had the Kronzilla in his system. In fact, Zu Audio showed with Kronzilla for some time. But he likes a "lovely" sound ime.

Didn't realize the 6c33 was so warm.

 

[morricab]

No, he's had the Kronzilla in his system. In fact, Zu Audio showed with Kronzilla for some time. But he likes a "lovely" sound ime.

Didn't realize the 6c33 was so warm.

Not so warm, just warmer than my Ayon or the JJ, neither of which really falls on the warm side of SETland. I would call the Wall M50s slightly warmer than true neutral but not swimming in warmth.

Funny enough, a friend of mine has both the VA350 and the KRonzilla SX and at least on his speakers the VA350 sounds better, less warm and more accurate.

 

[morricab]

No, he's had the Kronzilla in his system. In fact, Zu Audio showed with Kronzilla for some time. But he likes a "lovely" sound ime.

Didn't realize the 6c33 was so warm.

The 6C33C amps have a lot of grunt though...quite palpable.

 

[KeithR]

Not so warm, just warmer than my Ayon or the JJ, neither of which really falls on the warm side of SETland. I would call the Wall M50s slightly warmer than true neutral but not swimming in warmth.

Funny enough, a friend of mine has both the VA350 and the KRonzilla SX and at least on his speakers the VA350 sounds better, less warm and more accurate.

Let me know if you hear the Audions some time - should be easy to demo in your neck of the woods.

I've pretty much landed on trying a Jadis I50 to compare with my Dart CTH. "light through a window" as Bonzo says, but should be more objective than the SETs I mentioned. Good transformers, doesn't resort to traditional use of feedback, active preamp section, remote etc. KR is an easier find on your side of the pond.

 

[morricab]

Let me know if you hear the Audions some time - should be easy to demo in your neck of the woods.

I've pretty much landed on trying a Jadis I50 to compare with my Dart CTH. "light through a window" as Bonzo says, but should be more objective than the SETs I mentioned. Good transformers, doesn't resort to traditional use of feedback, active preamp section, remote etc. KR is an easier find on your side of the pond.

The best sounding Jadis that I have heard was the Defy 7 MkIII. I think there is an even later version, the DA70. I know it is not integrated but it is a very good sounding push/pull tube amp. Another one to look at would be the CAT JL2...very good sounding as well. There are new, smaller, monos called the JL5 that are also impressive. Finally, consider the Lamm ML 1.1, which is 90 watts push/pull with 6C33C output tubes...heard this on a pair of Wilson Watt/puppy 7s and that was one of the best sounds I have heard with Wilson speakers. Oh, almost forgot, for relatively little money the Antique Sound Lab Cadenza DT with 60 watts from two 845s in push/pull should be considered as well as the Canary Audio PP 300B amps. If you can't, hard to imagine, live with SET then Class A PP triode is the next best thing, IMO.

 

[bonzo75]

Which Jadis models have you compared the Defy 7 MkIII with?

 

[morricab]

Which Jadis models have you compared the Defy 7 MkIII with?

None directly A/B. But I have heard the I50, JA30, JA80, Orchestra and the reference versio nof this one. Plus Defy MKI

 

[microstrip]

The best sounding Jadis that I have heard was the Defy 7 MkIII. I think there is an even later version, the DA70. (...)

You are probably addressing the DA7. As far as I know the differences between all those late Defy 7 models (mk3, mk4 and DA7) models are minimal - just the output tubes, internal signal and and speaker cable and connectors. I also own the mk3 and love the sound of it when driven by the matching JPL preamplifier. Probably I will upgrade it to DA7 status when I have some free time.

BTW, did you listen to the BAT 6c33 amplifiers? I did not find them warm, but only listened to them only occasionally and briefly.

 

[morricab]

You are probably addressing the DA7. As far as I know the differences between all those late Defy 7 models (mk3, mk4 and DA7) models are minimal - just the output tubes, internal signal and and speaker cable and connectors. I also own the mk3 and love the sound of it when driven by the matching JPL preamplifier. Probably I will upgrade it to DA7 status when I have some free time.

BTW, did you listen to the BAT 6c33 amplifiers? I did not find them warm, but only listened to them only occasionally and briefly.

yes you are right I meant DA7. I have heard the original BAT VK60 and the VK120 monos. THey were quite good, I simply forgot about them. I think the Lamm is probably better but for a much steeper price. Interestingly, the BAT is basically a circlotron but with output transnformers. The Lamm I don't know the topology but I would have guessed a more conventional push/pull.

 

[KeithR]

The best sounding Jadis that I have heard was the Defy 7 MkIII. I think there is an even later version, the DA70. I know it is not integrated but it is a very good sounding push/pull tube amp. Another one to look at would be the CAT JL2...very good sounding as well. There are new, smaller, monos called the JL5 that are also impressive. Finally, consider the Lamm ML 1.1, which is 90 watts push/pull with 6C33C output tubes...heard this on a pair of Wilson Watt/puppy 7s and that was one of the best sounds I have heard with Wilson speakers. Oh, almost forgot, for relatively little money the Antique Sound Lab Cadenza DT with 60 watts from two 845s in push/pull should be considered as well as the Canary Audio PP 300B amps. If you can't, hard to imagine, live with SET then Class A PP triode is the next best thing, IMO.

The Defy was also known to blow up on occasion and was a tricky circuit. Not sure if the newer PA100 does or not, but its more complicated than my needs anyways. Honestly, the new JA30mk2 would be my Jadis separate choice. I'm not sure what happened to Canary - they used to have a local LA guy that distributed them as I thought about trying them years ago on my Definitions. CATs and Lamms are too much heat for my room. I also require remote which Lamm of course still objects to.

That said, I find the higher end integrateds to be the best value in audio so while I've considered some other options, I keep coming back to them. I'm sure you can agree considering your affection for the VA350i

 

[KeithR]

yes you are right I meant DA7. I have heard the original BAT VK60 and the VK120 monos. THey were quite good, I simply forgot about them. I think the Lamm is probably better but for a much steeper price. Interestingly, the BAT is basically a circlotron but with output transnformers. The Lamm I don't know the topology but I would have guessed a more conventional push/pull.

I had a BAT VK75SE for several years on Wilson Sophias and it was a great amp with superb bass. I've considered trying the 55SE, but I don't have a balanced system.