World Debut: Vertere Reference Tonearm

[microstrip]

Oh!! IT has been expressed, read the first pages! The thing is : High End Audio has become a game of price. Now Every single maker of Arm has to come up with an Arm in this "price Range". Most audiophiles with an Arm whose MSRP in a fraction of that one , now, consider theirs to be somewhat slighted. They may even actively push their preferred manufacturer to come up with an "all-out-assault on the SOTA" of course an arm of similar price. Already there are arms crossing the 20K threshold from what I read in this thread: The Telos with the Sapphire "something" is now $21,000. Who wants to bet that it won't be two years before the $50,000 tonearm of course superior to all others? Special construction has to be claimed. Audiophiles, who for many years have been perfectly content with arms hovering around $5K will raise the bar to 10K and $5K arms will become middle-of-the road. Mark my words. a $5K Arm will soon be evaluated with the condescending "good for this Price Range" qualifier/modifier


P.S. I wrote my post before Gary's last

Frantz,

I have read exactly the same arguments in the UK audio press when the first Koetsu's were introduced in this country in the early 80's.
30 years later the market is full of very expensive cartridges, that I hope very few people have doubts that sound better than the old ones.

Again IMHO, what upsets many people is the probability that this tonearm is really better than the less expensive. All else was clearly explained by Gary in his clear post about the 1,000,000 system owner. Unless some one can argue that there is no reason to believe that a system costing 1,000,000 should sound better than a 100,000 one I can not see any reason for the hysteria raised around this tonearm, that I think can not be taken out of the system being considered in these posts. Others will think differently, but this is my view. As I often say, we should debate systems, not isolated parts.

 

[XV-1]

Oh!! IT has been expressed, read the first pages! The thing is : High End Audio has become a game of price. Now Every single maker of Arm has to come up with an Arm in this "price Range". Most audiophiles with an Arm whose MSRP in a fraction of that one , now, consider theirs to be somewhat slighted. They may even actively push their preferred manufacturer to come up with an "all-out-assault on the SOTA" of course an arm of similar price. Already there are arms crossing the 20K threshold from what I read in this thread: The Telos with the Sapphire "something" is now $21,000. Who wants to bet that it won't be two years before the $50,000 tonearm of course superior to all others? Special construction has to be claimed. Audiophiles, who for many years have been perfectly content with arms hovering around $5K will raise the bar to 10K and $5K arms will become middle-of-the road. Mark my words. a $5K Arm will soon be evaluated with the condescending "good for this Price Range" qualifier/modifier


P.S. I wrote my post before Gary's last

When you are only making 5 of anything, given the tool up costs of expensive Titanium etc etc it may cost $10k or so to make each tonearm including R & D, which brings you up to the dealer price of 17.5k or so. Hardly value for money, but it will be a unique product, if it sounds wonderful and you have the disposable income - why not.

I wonder what the costs would be if you bought materials for 100 or 1000 units?

 

[Gregadd]

the prices are already rising.

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/triplanar-shows-12-inches-las-vegas

$9800.00

 

[XV-1]

the prices are already rising.

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/triplanar-shows-12-inches-las-vegas

$9800.00

What man doesn't want 3 more inches

But 70% more $$ for 33% more length ?

 

[garylkoh]

When you are only making 5 of anything, given the tool up costs of expensive Titanium etc etc it may cost $10k or so to make each tonearm including R & D, which brings you up to the dealer price of 17.5k or so. Hardly value for money, but it will be a unique product, if it sounds wonderful and you have the disposable income - why not.

I wonder what the costs would be if you bought materials for 100 or 1000 units?

I asked him the same question - not surprisingly (to me), it wouldn't cost very much less. In order to get the precision that he needs, he uses the same machinist as the Red Bull F1 team in the UK. You get the quality, but they aren't cheap.

I have the same problem with the G2jr. Precision machining is difficult to achieve with acrylic. I'm only making them 3 pairs at a time because of acrylic sheet yields. If I made 6 pairs at a time, the savings are in machine set-up time/costs and they would end up about 7% cheaper.

Only if the machining was automated would the prices go down substantially - and you'll need to tens of thousands. But then again, there are no automated machines that can make tens of thousands at the precision required. With the tonearm, the wear on the bits result in parts beyond the specified tolerance once you go beyond 5 pieces!

In the US, there is another problem. The military spec machine shops that can hit the tolerance needed are regulated - and there's a whole layer of additional cost involved to make sure that the parts being made are not used by North Korea to build nuclear centrifuges. I encountered that problem with my tweeters - to make them go beyond 36kHz I needed a special film that I'm not allowed to buy in the US.

 

[FrantzM]

Frantz,

I have read exactly the same arguments in the UK audio press when the first Koetsu's were introduced in this country in the early 80's.
30 years later the market is full of very expensive cartridges, that I hope very few people have doubts that sound better than the old ones.

Again IMHO, what upsets many people is the probability that this tonearm is really better than the less expensive. All else was clearly explained by Gary in his clear post about the 1,000,000 system owner. Unless some one can argue that there is no reason to believe that a system costing 1,000,000 should sound better than a 100,000 one I can not see any reason for the hysteria raised around this tonearm, that I think can not be taken out of the system being considered in these posts. Others will think differently, but this is my view. As I often say, we should debate systems, not isolated parts.

ok.

 

[FrantzM]

the prices are already rising.

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/triplanar-shows-12-inches-las-vegas

$9800.00

told you

 

[KBK]

Perhaps no HiFi company can cheat the public for that long, they would have been bankrupt long ago

By the gods, I wish that where true.

 

[Gregadd]

What man doesn't want 3 more inches

But 70% more $$ for 33% more length ?

According to my spam email and late night infomercials we all do.

 

[KBK]

I hear you. There has been a big furore over some of the Australian armed forces combat clothing was outsourced to China to save $$. A large % of them fell apart.

These companies can actually 'do it right'. and generally speaking, they do want to do things right.

But, in some cases, they simply don't have the depth of experience to make the correct determinations in all places and ways.

when, for example, evaluating stressing on threading.

Or what a quality source of threading is.

Or that the source point for the thread, whether they know or not..what materials make a good base for making thread.

Or that the maker of the base materials is making the mixture correctly.

Or that the supplier of the raw materials is conducting themselves correctly when cooking up their chemical/plastic stews.


That they have not finished making all these mistakes..and correcting them. Which will take on the normal curve of human learning, as they walk through life.

IMO...expect about 10-15 years, depending on the given industry, and the given depth of lore that needs be developed. (regarding playing 'catch up')

All these little things I stated above, are the kind of thing that a foreigner injected into the given company, at the correct location in the chain, this is the sort of critical thing that they can bring to the table.

I've actually witnessed 'factory cult' with regard to china (read up on 'cargo cult'). On multiple occasions. That the Chinese involved built a factory to try and attract the specific foreign skills (specific people) to make it a reality. I'm. Not. Kidding.

That I could go to china myself, and make a fortune in the audio business, and some other branches of manufacturing and sciences.

I would be screwing the western developed world to some extent, all while riding on the backs of unfortunate folks working in Chinese factories. the combination of things I'd have to 'eat', does indeed slow me down.

The wind does blow hard, though, in that direction. For some..have definitely done that. They are no slouch at learning in China, either.

It reminds me of a line, from Lena Olin, from the film 'Romeo is Bleeding'. She was speaking about her aspirations vs the local mobsters. She said, "They're old, and fat..and I'm Hungry."

 

[NorthStar]

These companies can actually 'do it right'. and generally speaking, they do want to do things right.

But, in some cases, they simply don't have the depth of experience to make the correct determinations in all places and ways.

when, for example, evaluating stressing on threading.

Or what a quality source of threading is.

Or that the source point for the thread, whether they know or not..what materials make a good base for making thread.

Or that the maker of the base materials is making the mixture correctly.

Or that the supplier of the raw materials is conducting themselves correctly when cooking up their chemical/plastic stews.


That they have not finished making all these mistakes..and correcting them. Which will take on the normal curve of human learning, as they walk through life.

IMO...expect about 10-15 years, depending on the given industry, and the given depth of lore that needs be developed. (regarding playing 'catch up')

All these little things I stated above, are the kind of thing that a foreigner injected into the given company, at the correct location in the chain, this is the sort of critical thing that they can bring to the table.

I've actually witnessed 'factory cult' with regard to china (read up on 'cargo cult'). On multiple occasions. That the Chinese involved built a factory to try and attract the specific foreign skills (specific people) to make it a reality. I'm. Not. Kidding.

That I could go to china myself, and make a fortune in the audio business, and some other branches of manufacturing and sciences.

I would be screwing the western developed world to some extent, all while riding on the backs of unfortunate folks working in Chinese factories. the combination of things I'd have to 'eat', does indeed slow me down.

The wind does blow hard, though, in that direction. For some..have definitely done that. They are no slouch at learning in China, either.

It reminds me of a line, from Lena Olin, from the film 'Romeo is Bleeding'. She was speaking about her aspirations vs the local mobsters. She said, "They're old, and fat..and I'm Hungry."

---- Great post.
...And I'm familiar with that flick ('Romeo is Bleeding'), and with Lena Olin, the actress, from that flick and others as well.

 

[KBK]

---- Great post.
...And I'm familiar with that flick ('Romeo is Bleeding'), and with Lena Olin, the actress, from that flick and others as well.

Wasn't that a staggering performance by Lena Olin and Gary Oldman? And the soundtrack, by Mark Isham? All amazing?

So intense.... that when you fell out of it at the end, that it basically left you feeling stunned by the equivalent of a blunt instrument to the head, as you staggered around the house, with your mouth still open?

The work done by those two actors, in that film, in that moment of cinema, may never be topped by either of them.

Don't believe the review ratings, and see it 'cold', if you've never seen it before. fans of film, will love it.

Some of the soundtrack:

 

[audioarcher]

Some detailed pictures of the tonearm taken with my S100 or Touraj's DSC-H7 so please forgive us if they are a little fuzzy.

The counterweight is decoupled - hung on tiny ball-races.

View attachment 7621

Gary, I find the decoupled counterweight interesting. Seems to be a very clever design. I have not seen this before except on your Artemiz arm which the counterweight sits on a unipivot. Touraj must have found it more beneficial to limit its movement to just forward backward motion on the Vertere. My only concern is if the weight gets enough momentum it may end up swinging in the wrong direction at the wrong time. If that did occur it would probably cause tracking issues. Considering you have owned the Artemiz for many years I assume you have not found this to be an issue.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Gary, I find the decoupled counterweight interesting. Seems to be a very clever design. I have not seen this before except on your Artemiz arm which the counterweight sits on a unipivot. Touraj must have found it more beneficial to limit its movement to just forward backward motion on the Vertere. My only concern is if the weight gets enough momentum it may end up swinging in the wrong direction at the wrong time. If that did occur it would probably cause tracking issues. Considering you have owned the Artemiz for many years I assume you have not found this to be an issue.

Bruce Thigpen used this concept also on the ET2.

 

[NorthStar]

'Romeo is Bleeding'

---- Yeah, with Gary Oldman. ...Got the DVD on that one.

* Lena Olin was also in 'The Unbearable Lightness of Being', 'Enemies, a Love Story', 'Havana' with Robert Redford, 'Chocolat', ...

** Huge fan of Mark Isham's movie scores, and music CDs too.

_________

Sorry for the missing tonearm.

 

[audioarcher]

Bruce Thigpen used this concept also on the ET2.

I see. The more I learn about the ET2's design the more intrigued I get. Have you used one before Miles?

 

[Gregadd]

Immedia RPM-2

 

[NorthStar]

-- Scotch tape?

 

[Gregadd]

Just look at the decoupled countreweight

 

[audioarcher]

Just look at the decoupled countreweight

Doesn't look like the same sort of decoupling as the Artemiz/Vertere to me. On Touraj's arms the counterweight swings independent of the arms bearings. The counterweight has its own bearings.