ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, I for one am v curious re any final judgements you make on SETs v SS ie Lamms v Darts.
When I had my epiphany discovering tubes (first Hovland pre in 2006, then Nat 211 and Audion 845 in 2013), I was sure that sense of ease, fluidity and the sense of the “story” (SETs) being more critical than the “words” (SS) was a final destination for me.
And I still feel this way to the present day having lived w my NATs for an extended period. Esp upon hearing uninvolving SS in so many systems for so many years.
However, I’ve also heard some really compelling SS incl Class AB 15W Bakoon on Cessaro Liszts horns (Class D, and interestingly a Class A 211s amp were poor), and most recently 200W Class A/AB Concert Fidelity on ML Spires. I really could live v easily w either setup involving those wonderful SS amps.
I pose this comment because I truly feel my Zus are somewhat lacking a little something in my new room, on the one hand totally involving, on the other somewhat veiled and missing the last degree of true resolution (as a decade-long fan I find these words hard to write), and restored Apogees remain a viable option for me in this room - but only if I move back to SS.
Of course, horns appeal too - and SETs remain the ideal topology for these.
So, yr words in ongoing comparisons btwn yr two amps are of particular interest to me.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I for one am v curious re any final judgements you make on SETs v SS ie Lamms v Darts.
When I had my epiphany discovering tubes (first Hovland pre in 2006, then Nat 211 and Audion 845 in 2013, I was sure that sense of ease, fluidity and the sense of the “story” (SETs) being more critical than the “words” (SS) was a final destination for me.
And I still feel this way to the present day having lived w my NATs for an extended period. Esp upon hearing uninvolving SS in so many systems for so many years.
However, I’ve also heard some really compelling SS incl Class AB 15W Bakoon on Cessaro Liszts horns (Class D, and interestingly a Class A 211s amp we’re poor), and most recently 200W Class A/AB Concert Fidelity on ML Spires. I really could live v easily w either setup involving those wonderful SS amps.
I pose this comment because I truly feel my Zus are somewhat lacking in my new room, on the one hand totally involving, on the other somewhat veiled and lacking true resolution (as a decade-long fan I find these words hard to write), and restored Apogees remain a viable option for me in this room - but only if I move back to SS.
Of course, horns appeal too - and SETs remain the ideal topology for these.
So, yr words in ongoing comparisons btwn yr two amps are of particular interest to me.

too soon to go there. the Lamm's are still the 'new thing' and I certainly love what they do. and recognize what they don't do. but I've not even listened to the darts since the Lamm's arrived. so talking better or worse and all that is not for me right now. I have no objective perspective right now. honestly my whole intention is not to worry about better or worse, and luxuriate in simply choosing which one to use at a particular time......I want it all at optimal levels.....and made that commitment.

maybe the only thing I could say is that the Lamm's are not capable of doing justice to all kinds of music like I like it. yet they are likely superior/more enjoyable in certain ways on certain kinds of music. not sure that is helpful, but it's the best I can do now.

good luck with your particular choices.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, addendum to you, EVENTUALLY re final judgements. However long it takes, yr verdicts along the way will be worth waiting for.
In my case, this is more a feeling of dissatisfaction w my current Zus, not an issue w tubes.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, addendum to you, EVENTUALLY re final judgements. However long it takes, yr verdicts along the way will be worth waiting for.
In my case, this is more a feeling of dissatisfaction w my current Zus, not an issue w tubes.

well......clean/clear your mind and just enjoy the music. re-boot. don't think too much. enjoy what your whole system does for the music and enjoyment. take a walk and breathe deeply. then listen some more.

it just might be creeping audiophile nervosa.....and not any lack with the Zus. after you enjoy the music for a time then see where you are at. there is no rush. we will still be here after some reflection.

 

[morricab]

too soon to go there. the Lamm's are still the 'new thing' and I certainly love what they do. and recognize what they don't do. but I've not even listened to the darts since the Lamm's arrived. so talking better or worse and all that is not for me right now. I have no objective perspective right now. honestly my whole intention is not to worry about better or worse, and luxuriate in simply choosing which one to use at a particular time. better or worse is for those who can't have both.....I want it all at optimal levels.....and made that commitment.

maybe the only thing I could say is that the Lamm's are not capable of doing justice to all kinds of music like I like it. yet they are likely superior/more enjoyable in certain ways on certain kinds of music. not sure that is helpful, but it's the best I can do now.

good luck with your particular choices.

You must be listening awfully loud...

 

[DaveyF]

Mike, addendum to you, EVENTUALLY re final judgements. However long it takes, yr verdicts along the way will be worth waiting for.
In my case, this is more a feeling of dissatisfaction w my current Zus, not an issue w tubes.

Marc,

There are so many good speakers out there right now that if you are disappointed in your Zu’s, there will be an excellent replacement.
Yesterday, i went to hear the wonderful set up of Air Tight amps and Serblin speakers at Alma audio. The Serblin line is a superb line and one of these speakers could well be just the ticket to replace the Zu’s. Certainly, no one would consider them in any way as ‘veiled’.
Nonetheless, there are many other speakers available today that I believe could easily surpass the Zu’s...you just have to go out and listen.

It’s a good time to be in the speaker market, IMO

 

[Mike Lavigne]

You must be listening awfully loud...

not at all. I go where the music takes me, without limitation. if I run into a limit, I don't like it, and that's an issue for me.

a few here have listened with me when the music does demand that higher gear, and that higher gear serves the musical enjoyment and experience. my whole system development approach has been based on getting out of the way of the music, and part of that is headroom, and linearity on peaks. I want intimate music to sound intimate, and big music to soar.....and soar. when i'm in that mood.

IMHO, YMMV, my 2 cents, and all that.

 

[jazdoc]

thanks to you and Ben for taking the time last night to give me feedback on my new toy. glad you liked it....figured you would. and you are rarely if ever a wow guy.

Within their performance envelope, the Lamm's work great in Mike's system. The bass is deeper and more more textural yet remains well defined. Music projects into the room and is much more visceral. The presentation is more vivid and lifelike, more akin to a live event. If I've ever had a more emotional connection to recorded music, I can not recall.

Still processing the experience, especially Mike's heretofore unrevealed fanboy devotion to the band Dream Theater...who knew?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hey Mike, a world’s first, someone not pushing for an upgrade as a solution, thanks.
As usual on social media/forums, one has to exaggerate or over emphasise to make a point.
I’m actually on balance v happy w my system, which obviously includes the Zus.
I’ve heard some v poor systems in the last couple of years, box/ribbons/horns, SS and tubes.
But also three amazing presentations, fantastic energy and wall of bass at User211’s Apogee Duettas/211s/Lampi Big 7 system, exemplary dynamics and transparency at Blu58’s AG Duos/45s/SGM-T&A Dac8 system, and class leading neutrality and delicacy at Paul Z Axis Audio’s modded ML Spires/Concert Fidelity SS/Sony DD tt system.
These are the three systems that are giving me massive food for thought.
But I get your sentiment, kick back and enjoy, and gradually form conclusions.
FWIW, I may conclude the Zus have reached their performance envelope limit in my new room, their shortcomings exposed, and these three positive comparisons may help point me twds an interesting final upgrade decision re spkrs.
Or not. LOL

 

[PeterA]

Within their performance envelope, the Lamm's work great in Mike's system. The bass is deeper and more more textural yet remains well defined. Music projects into the room and is much more visceral. The presentation is more vivid and lifelike, more akin to a live event. If I've ever had a more emotional connection to recorded music, I can not recall.

Still processing the experience, especially Mike's heretofore unrevealed fanboy devotion to the band Dream Theater...who knew?

Fascinating. Are you describing the Lamm's ying to the Dart's yang?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Jazdoc, if Mike is into Dream Theater, he must have been rocking out when 2112 was played by Hi-Fi Guy Mike for Xander.
No Rush, no Dream Theater.

 

[Tango]

The bass is deeper and more more textural yet remains well defined. Music projects into the room and is much more visceral. The presentation is more vivid and lifelike, more akin to a live event.

Wow. Really sound like excellent amps. My system is all tube. I found adding a tube phono has more delta than tube preamp. Dart pre is already working terrific.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[spiritofmusic]

The only issue I have re any move to new spkrs is correctly diagnosing any dissatisfaction.
For me, the issues w Zus (if they exist at all), are low level, abs can easily be lived with, and indeed the strengths of Zu far outweigh the weaknesses.
One, a slight reticence in the high frequencies, a result of full range drivers only crossing to Radian supertweeters at 11kHz
Two, their USP of tone density in lower mids simultaneously creating some opaqueness in sound, and resisting full liberation of soundstage from the spkrs
Three, related to last effect, a little roughness, or lack of microdynamics and fine detail resolution.
Ironically, my vastly improved room dynamics and low noise power grid have enabled my system to soar past the limits they had in my old room. At the same time, highlighting what the Zus really are not good at.
I’m certainly aware of a certain sonic thumbprint audible on most recordings.
By no means a deal breaker, but I do know better is out there, that could be Apogees, it could be horns - I have a standing interest in Sadurni horns out of Texas and Haigner horns out of Austria.
But only once I’ve wrung every improvement I can w my current Zus.

 

[Steve williams]

Within their performance envelope, the Lamm's work great in Mike's system. The bass is deeper and more more textural yet remains well defined. Music projects into the room and is much more visceral. The presentation is more vivid and lifelike, more akin to a live event. If I've ever had a more emotional connection to recorded music, I can not recall.

Still processing the experience, especially Mike's heretofore unrevealed fanboy devotion to the band Dream Theater...who knew?

Mark

That’s the experience we ML3 owners always have

I’m trying to understand what these ML3’s don’t do for Mike if this was such a visceral experience for you

 

[jazdoc]

Fascinating. Are you describing the Lamm's ying to the Dart's yang?

I was describing Lamm's yang to the Dart's ying...

 

[Tango]

I was describing Lamm's yang to the Dart's ying...

So Lamm is Yang not Yin

 

[spiritofmusic]

One man’s Yang is another man’s Ying.
Or is it the other way around?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Jazdoc, if Mike is into Dream Theater, he must have been rocking out when 2112 was played by Hi-Fi Guy Mike for Xander.
No Rush, no Dream Theater.

Mike who is into Dream Theater?

I was upstairs in my storage attic figuring out what to throw out to make room for the ML3 & SRA platform crates.

 

[jazdoc]

Mike who is into Dream Theater?

I was upstairs in my storage attic figuring out what to throw out to make room for the ML3 & SRA platform crates.

You were shredding some gnarly air guitar....

 

[Mike Lavigne]

You were shredding some gnarly air guitar....

do they have any cuts under 11 minutes?