ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[PeterA]

thanks Tang and Mike,

it's funny thinking about it. the key to being able to combine the full charms of the ML3's and dart 458's is the Rodney Dangerfield of 'uber' speakers......the MM7's. they get no respect, in any list of top transducers at best it's an afterthought, added mostly because i post alot about it. no one dreams about it. but it kicks all the other tough guys asses. none can offer the Lamm ML3's the array of optimal advantages to allow it to really shine. it's super room adjustable. and it just delivers the goods. like Mike says, it laughs at any challenge. it rivals horns and planers and stats at their strengths, yet offers true top to true bottom coherency.....and goes down to -3db at 7hz and -6db at 3hz.

Even Bonzo's write up on my system credited my room tuning efforts over the uniqueness of the MM7's. it can't win.

I guess we will have to see if it will continue to stay below the radar, or maybe like you guys, as great as the ML3's perform with it, others recognize the opportunities it offers the ultimate system builders.

I get tired of talking about the MM7's virtues since it mostly is on deaf ears; I guess it takes a universally recognized 'sexy' uber tube amp to draw attention to the uniqueness of the MM7's. the Evolution Acoustics MM7's are the key ingredient to the magic happening here.

best regards,

Mike

Mike, why do you think the MM7's "get no respect"? I'm not disputing your observation, I am just wondering why. I often feel the same way about my turntable. I don't understand it. These particular components are never mentioned in the discussion. Is it about marketing, exposure, cost, buzz?

Does this small bubble of audiophile forums really give us a sense of what is happening out there? I mean there are many people with incredible systems and components who do not spend any time on the forums. They are out there and we are not aware of them or their systems. The Magico M Pro sold 50 pairs and perhaps two are ever discussed here. I think of all the top gear that my local dealer sells, and almost non of it goes to people who chat on sites like WBF. I think we are a very vocal minority.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, we think we’re the centre of the audiophile universe.
We’re not.
I know of two specialist horns companies that have zero exposure online beyond websites.
No English language reviews, forum exposure, no nothing.
And yet have sold many dozens of prs of uncompromisingly engineered, and eye wateringly priced, gear to owners with 6 figure prices systems, no fanfare.

 

[bonzo75]

Well, Bob (rhapsody) sold 25 of those 800k anniversary goldmund apologues. How many can you count on this forum?

 

[PeterA]

Well, Bob (rhapsody) sold 25 of those 800k anniversary goldmund apologues. How many can you count on this forum?

Yes I met Bob and saw all the photographs of the Goldman systems that he has installed and I agree with you no presents on the forums. That’s just one example of many very expensive systems that are out there with no discussion so it may just be the same with the MM7 but I don’t know.

 

[BMCG]

Yes I met Bob and saw all the photographs of the Goldman systems that he has installed and I agree with you no presents on the forums.

Suspect more than a few of the Goldmund systems...ended up in the hands of Goldman Sachs employees...

That's an intriguing autocorrect...or Freudian slip...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Thank God these uber uber guys aren’t posting, can you imagine how much higher Ked’s air flights costs would be .

 

[morricab]

Well, Bob (rhapsody) sold 25 of those 800k anniversary goldmund apologues. How many can you count on this forum?

Yeah, that one is a head-scratcher to me...you can get the Vox Olympian with change back or even the Magico monster horn for that money!

 

[bonzo75]

Thank God these uber uber guys aren’t posting, can you imagine how much higher Ked’s air flights costs would be .

Lol

 

[spiritofmusic]

They’re doing you a service.
I spoke to the U.K. rep for Entreq in this country, and was curious if all the positive chat via the thread I started had translated directly into sales.
He replied that precisely less than one customer bought as a result of the words of me, Barry, Lloyd etc.
There was some general awareness in the wider audiophile community, but nothing as concrete as a direct sale.
Honest story.

 

[bonzo75]

They’re doing you a service.
I spoke to the U.K. rep for Entreq in this country, and was curious if all the positive chat via the thread I started had translated directly into sales.
He replied that precisely less than one customer bought as a result of the words of me, Barry, Lloyd etc.
There was some general awareness in the wider audiophile community, but nothing as concrete as a direct sale.
Honest story.

From what I understand, after you started the thread people got interested but then you kept posting so much across all threads they pulled back their orders. True story

 

[Rhapsody]

Hey Ked, I WISH I sold 25 Apologues. Goldmund did sell 25 Apologues globally. I personally sold and installed 3 pairs of Apolouges in 2017. Sold several pairs of Epilogue prior to the Apologues.

I have many clients with $300K plus systems that never look at audio forums. Most of them are involved with their business, other hobbies, professions and family etc. They do listen and enjoy music but aren't really interested in talking about audio equipment ad nauseum.

 

[JackD201]

Hey Ked, I WISH I sold 25 Apologues. Goldlmund did sell 25 Apologues globally. I personally sold and installed 3 pairs of Apolouges in 2017. Sold several pairs of Epilogue prior to the Apologues.

I have many clients with $300K plus systems that never look at audio forums. Most of them are involved with their business or profession and family etc. They do listen and enjoy music but aren't really interested in talking about audio equipment ad nauseum.

That's one heck of a good wish man. Dang, I sure wouldn't mind!

 

[spiritofmusic]

That’s a sad story Ked, that my words actually led to fewer sales/pulled purchases for Entreq.
Indeed I’m nearly turned to floods of tears of sorrow that my positive words actually hampered sales, in the U.K., worldwide, wherever.
But my eyes stay dry, since sales of Entreq have been v healthy, all I did was prevent an even bigger success story for the company.
I can live with myself over that.
Of course the only way to know that would be to speak to many audiophiles, he U.K. rep, or individual dealers. Maybe you did that.
I’m hoping that your continued promotion of Lampi and Shun Mooks didn’t have the same effect as mine on Entreq, that would be too bad.

 

[Steve williams]

Hi Mike

Well after 550 posts in this most interesting thread I must ask the question inasmuch as you have suggested the ML3 does a lot right but you also suggested that there are things they don’t do

Candidly with your speakers being 97db efficient I cannot imagine what they don’t do. The amps are 32 Watts pure class A and after reading jazdocs impressions at your house I did not read anything that the ML 3 doesn’t do.

I am still betting that an LL1 paired with the amp will give you pause as to which electronics you prefer. I have one last question mike. Have you grounded the ML3 with Tripoint and Entreq. I ask only because my personal attempts several years ago to ground the ML3 was futile as it introduced a hum in my system that disappeared when I removed the grounding cables. I can tell you this that the ML3 imo doesn’t do well with grounding

Mike you have intimated that there are things the ML3 doesn’t do. Jazdoc has heard your system countless times and what I read in his synopsis was that it was the best listening experience he has had in your room. Certainly he had no comments about what the ML3 doesn’t do

Hence my question Mike. I am interested in what you think they don’t do

 

[spiritofmusic]

From what I’m gleaning Steve, it’s not the big picture that’s missing, indeed this may be bigger, brighter, deeper, more panoramic than ever.
It’s some of the details, ie maybe the Lamms are less forensic or detailed in presentation.
My analogy is that tubes are great at the meaning of the sentence, and the punctuation, SS may define the words better.
Maybe Mike loves the sentences as Jazdoc does, but he’s looking more closely (listening more intently) at the individual words too.

 

[KeithR]

Jazdoc is also a noted SET fan...

 

[Steve williams]

Jazdoc is also a noted SET fan...

Perhaps but nonetheless reading jazdoc’s synopsis what I gleaned from it was that it was his best listening experience in Mikes room.

At 97 dB efficient speakers I don’t care if they are 32 Watts because I am betting that there is nothing lacking.

 

[microstrip]

Poor Mike!

 

[bonzo75]

Poor Mike!

Actually we count the time in number of posts and not in terms of days so 550 posts is sufficient time

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike

Well after 550 posts in this most interesting thread I must ask the question inasmuch as you have suggested the ML3 does a lot right but you also suggested that there are things they don’t do

Candidly with your speakers being 97db efficient I cannot imagine what they don’t do. The amps are 32 Watts pure class A and after reading jazdocs impressions at your house I did not read anything that the ML 3 doesn’t do.

I am still betting that an LL1 paired with the amp will give you pause as to which electronics you prefer. I have one last question mike. Have you grounded the ML3 with Tripoint and Entreq. I ask only because my personal attempts several years ago to ground the ML3 was futile as it introduced a hum in my system that disappeared when I removed the grounding cables. I can tell you this that the ML3 imo doesn’t do well with grounding

Mike you have intimated that there are things the ML3 doesn’t do. Jazdoc has heard your system countless times and what I read in his synopsis was that it was the best listening experience he has had in your room. Certainly he had no comments about what the ML3 doesn’t do

Hence my question Mike. I am interested in what you think they don’t do

well......the easy answer about what the ML3's don't do is best answered by saying that they cannot take the top off the system and just keep going and going with more scale and energizing each molecule in the room; which well serves quite a few types of recordings. the problem is that unless you hear what the 458's can do, there is no way to realize what is missing. and the musical experience consequences of what the 458's can do.

it would be like trying to explain what the ML3's do without actually hearing it.

and then there is the character of the ML3's which is a desired attribute, but also an artifact that is heard here and there. I have no illusions that SET lovers won't reject this school of thought, but there is no doubt the the ML3's 'enhance' the sound to some degree.....as lovely and emotionally engaging as that enhancement is. I love it too.