ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[andromedaaudio]

Regarding mikes comments on the ml3 s , i fully understand it regarding the powerissue .
That s why i sold the Zanden. , Imo Mike would love a Cat amp does IT all ( for me )

 

[DaveyF]

This is not my personal experience. Most of the buyers that I have encountered do not obsess about talking about audio equipment, although they pretty much all have had high end audio systems for most of their lives.

In the last 20 years I have never sold one big $$$ system to someone wanting to fill a space or just walked in and bought it for it's size. I've sold a few high end systems each of the last 20 years, probably 50+ BIG systems total. Everyone of those systems were sold to usually very successful people who loved to listen to music. They just don't obsess about talking about gear, but they do love listening to music.

I'm not saying that the people in the audiophile meeting and their dealers/friends have not sold the way you describe, it's just that for me that has not been my experience. Actually I wish I could find buyers that would want to "fill a space", that would be great, but it hasn't happened to me.

I've also never sold one big time system to a Goldman Sachs or any other Wall Street guy. I've sold smaller systems to the Wall Street guys, but not big time systems.

Interesting. However, as Alex points out above, the buyer is typically all about the visual aspect. This would point to the fact that they are, at least imho, less sophisticated as to the hobby. That would tend to say that the buyer is more along the lines of the ‘walk in’ customer that I described before. Nonetheless, the old saying that most a’philes buy with their eyes and not their ears is also correct! Which is a shame, because a great deal of excellent gear is passed up due to this fact.
When I look at the Vivid Giya line, I question their thinking as to WAF, but then once I hear the speakers, I couldn’t care less anymore...however, I do question how many sales they must have lost due to their looks!

 

[KeithR]

When I look at the Vivid Giya line, I question their thinking as to WAF, but then once I hear the speakers, I couldn’t care less anymore...however, I do question how many sales they must have lost due to their looks!

The answer is probably "a lot" - as dealers have likely refused to take them on because of looks. AGs and most horns in the US have the same issue, but apparently is different in Europe.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Bruce B said IT ones Nice , regarding shows publicity.
You got to leave a bug in ones ear

 

[morricab]

No. I am mainly addressing tubes versus SS high quality, very high power. SET Lamm can sound excellent, but can not be miraculous.

Peter van Wilenswaard demonstrated that a SET can generate several times its rated power with certain instantaneous signals...look at the articles he published in Stereophile on the subject...a 8 watt SET was pumping out higher voltage peaks than a 25 watt and in fact put out the voltage on a tambourine strike that would require an 80 watt SS amp to generate!
"I replaced the 8 ohm load with the speaker and tried to see how far I could crank up the volume with this passage on the CD until no further increase in output occurred. I got fig.4: certainly distorted in comparison to fig.2, although I could hear nothing at all problematic. But look at that 36Vp in the negative half of the picture—it would take an 80W class-A transistor amp to allow such a voltage excursion! Fig.4 also suggests that if the 300B output stage were dimensioned differently and optimized for these transient conditions instead of the usual steady-state sinewave condition, the heavy positive clipping could have been avoided. This deserves investigation, but that means a whole new project...
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/tubes-do-something-special-page-2#YsQISOXwlYR7xVQi.99"


Consider now a 32 watt SET with a rather large power supply and it seems that there is probably a lot more going on than meets the eye. We never got the AC Diana (rated 25 watts) to audibly clip on a 91db pair of Thiel CS3.7s even though we were playing peaks well above 100db. I would argue that it could SEEM miraculous if you don't know what to expect from a topology.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/tubes-do-something-special-followup
https://www.stereophile.com/content/tubes-do-something-special-followup-part-2

The 8 watt SET was significantly more powerful dynamically than an amp that was a nominally 3x more powerful (25 watts) SS amp. Even a little 4 watt EL84 PP tube amp was nearly equal to the SS amp with a wider range choir and orchestra.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Peter van Wilenswaard demonstrated that a SET can generate several times its rated power with certain instantaneous signals...look at the articles he published in Stereophile on the subject...a 8 watt SET was pumping out higher voltage peaks than a 25 watt and in fact put out the voltage on a tambourine strike that would require an 80 watt SS amp to generate!
"I replaced the 8 ohm load with the speaker and tried to see how far I could crank up the volume with this passage on the CD until no further increase in output occurred. I got fig.4: certainly distorted in comparison to fig.2, although I could hear nothing at all problematic. But look at that 36Vp in the negative half of the picture—it would take an 80W class-A transistor amp to allow such a voltage excursion! Fig.4 also suggests that if the 300B output stage were dimensioned differently and optimized for these transient conditions instead of the usual steady-state sinewave condition, the heavy positive clipping could have been avoided. This deserves investigation, but that means a whole new project...
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/tubes-do-something-special-page-2#YsQISOXwlYR7xVQi.99"


Consider now a 32 watt SET with a rather large power supply and it seems that there is probably a lot more going on than meets the eye. We never got the AC Diana (rated 25 watts) to audibly clip on a 91db pair of Thiel CS3.7s even though we were playing peaks well above 100db. I would argue that it could SEEM miraculous if you don't know what to expect from a topology.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/tubes-do-something-special-followup
https://www.stereophile.com/content/tubes-do-something-special-followup-part-2

The 8 watt SET was significantly more powerful dynamically than an amp that was a nominally 3x more powerful (25 watts) SS amp. Even a little 4 watt EL84 PP tube amp was nearly equal to the SS amp with a wider range choir and orchestra.

as you can imagine, I am intimately aware of the capabilities of my dart 458's on familiar music in my system. and not only do I know from listening, I can also watch the continuous and peak watt outputs on the read out on the front of the dart amps.

as I played a few cuts Saturday night with the ML3's and I pushed them to their limits the increase in SPL's and note expansion and envelopment just stopped and no longer increased. it's all the throttle there was. the sound was good, but did not attain the sense of 'lift-off' I know the system and the particular music recording can attain. there were plenty of recordings, even the majority, where the ML3's were fully capable of taking me all the way to where I wanted to go. but quite a few that are important that ML3's cannot get me there.

so while no doubt the ML3's have more peak wattage than meets the eye, they don't have nearly enough to get the job done that I expect to get done.

not everyone has the same expectation, or has approached their system development with the same goals in mind.

 

[morricab]

Mike, I consider the MM7s to be absolutely state-of-the-art and among the very best loudspeakers available today. I think when I write my little personal SOTA favorite speaker list I usually write “Rockport Arrakis, Genesis Prime, Gryphon Kodo, VSA Ultra 11 and EA MM7.”

And that’s never even having heard the MM7s. That is simply on the basis of the MM3 Exacts which I thought sounded remarkable and which Steve and I (and many other people) gave best sound of the show two years ago in Los Angeles.

When a member here asked me for advice on a four column loudspeaker system I said “you have to audition the big Genesis, the Kodos and the MM7s.”

Maybe the question is not why aren’t more MM7s sold. Maybe the question is how many of all types of these monster four column systems are sold? I would think the aggregate number is pretty small.

No Vox Olympian or Cessaro or Aries Cerat Symphonia on that list? Just curious why it runs only to big multidriver and planar hybrid Behemoths. Don't get me wrong, I went through that phase (Infinity IRS Betas, giant electrostats in a "sub-sat" 4 panel configuration with Accphase F25 active xover) and still like many of them very much (Kind of still think about owning a Genesis 350se system or whatever the latest iteration is now).

 

[morricab]

as you can imagine, I am intimately aware of the capabilities of my dart 458's on familiar music in my system. and not only do I know from listening, I can also watch the continuous and peak watt outputs on the read out on the front of the dart amps.

as I played a few cuts Saturday night with the ML3's and I pushed them to their limits the increase in SPL's and note expansion and envelopment just stopped and no longer increased. it's all the throttle there was. the sound was good, but did not attain the sense of 'lift-off' I know the system and the particular music recording can attain. there were plenty of recordings, even the majority, where the ML3's were fully capable of taking me all the way to where I wanted to go. but quite a few that are important that ML3's cannot get me there.

so while no doubt the ML3's have more peak wattage than meets the eye, they don't have nearly enough to get the job done that I expect to get done.

Then you ARE listening very loud often it seems. Dave C was right about the peak levels you should get from the Lamms of around 112db...but that is assuming the rated 32 watts and not what Peter v W. demonstrated with the 8 watt SET getting 2.5x or more Volts (even more power) out. This means peaks probably closer to 120db are possible for "instantaneous" bursts. This is way above the levels I listen at, where peaks are normally not more than 100db (often a lot less)...occasionally I will rock out at maybe close to 110db peaks, although with horns it is still so clean at this level it doesn't "hurt" like it would with most conventional systems.

 

[LL21]

Regarding mikes comments on the ml3 s , i fully understand it regarding the powerissue .
That s why i sold the Zanden. , Imo Mike would love a Cat amp does IT all ( for me )

Interesting...i spent a long time thinking about Zanden monos and Lamm ML2 and ML2.2s but in the end wanted something both spectacular in its own right...and also powerful enough to give me long-term flexibility. I have no doubt both are magic. I did think about CJ Ref monos, but i have enough tubes (for me) with Zanden and CJ preamp already.

 

[microstrip]

Peter van Wilenswaard demonstrated that a SET can generate several times its rated power with certain instantaneous signals...look at the articles he published in Stereophile on the subject...a 8 watt SET was pumping out higher voltage peaks than a 25 watt and in fact put out the voltage on a tambourine strike that would require an 80 watt SS amp to generate!
"I replaced the 8 ohm load with the speaker and tried to see how far I could crank up the volume with this passage on the CD until no further increase in output occurred. I got fig.4: certainly distorted in comparison to fig.2, although I could hear nothing at all problematic. But look at that 36Vp in the negative half of the picture—it would take an 80W class-A transistor amp to allow such a voltage excursion! Fig.4 also suggests that if the 300B output stage were dimensioned differently and optimized for these transient conditions instead of the usual steady-state sinewave condition, the heavy positive clipping could have been avoided. This deserves investigation, but that means a whole new project...
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/tubes-do-something-special-page-2#YsQISOXwlYR7xVQi.99"


Consider now a 32 watt SET with a rather large power supply and it seems that there is probably a lot more going on than meets the eye. We never got the AC Diana (rated 25 watts) to audibly clip on a 91db pair of Thiel CS3.7s even though we were playing peaks well above 100db. I would argue that it could SEEM miraculous if you don't know what to expect from a topology.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/tubes-do-something-special-followup
https://www.stereophile.com/content/tubes-do-something-special-followup-part-2

The 8 watt SET was significantly more powerful dynamically than an amp that was a nominally 3x more powerful (25 watts) SS amp. Even a little 4 watt EL84 PP tube amp was nearly equal to the SS amp with a wider range choir and orchestra.

Thanks - it is known that tubes in general sound more powerful than the equivalently measuring SS. But we also have some SS amps that sounded more powerful than expected - for example the Hiraga class A designs. But what I was addressing was a completely different type of sound with powerful music - not tambourines. Anyway the only way of feeling the high power, high quality effects is listening - and this is my only point: reporting my experience. The article by Peter van Willenswaard was interesting but lacks any systematic approach and is too particular - for example a comparison with a class A amplifier is vague, usually class A amplifiers can have much higher peaks in class AB, something that was not considered in the article.

 

[Ron Resnick]

No Vox Olympian or Cessaro or Aries Cerat Symphonia on that list? Just curious why it runs only to big multidriver and planar hybrid Behemoths. Don't get me wrong, I went through that phase (Infinity IRS Betas, giant electrostats in a "sub-sat" 4 panel configuration with Accphase F25 active xover) and still like many of them very much (Kind of still think about owning a Genesis 350se system or whatever the latest iteration is now).

No -- simply and solely for the reason that I have not heard them in a non-show situation, let alone a leisurely situation. If I were to hear them in a leisurely situation I might find them to be the best loudspeakers I have ever heard.

(In my analytical preference framework you know that I believe that one's musical preference is a high-correlation driver of loudspeaker preference. Since my primary musical preference is not jazz it is very unlikely I would prefer the systems you mention over the systems I mentioned. If I listened primarily to jazz I think it is extremely likely I would have gotten a Cessaro Gamma II system or the Viva Masterhorn system, and never look back.)

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Then you ARE listening very loud often it seems. Dave C was right about the peak levels you should get from the Lamms of around 112db...but that is assuming the rated 32 watts and not what Peter v W. demonstrated with the 8 watt SET getting 2.5x or more Volts (even more power) out. This means peaks probably closer to 120db are possible for "instantaneous" bursts. This is way above the levels I listen at, where peaks are normally not more than 100db (often a lot less)...occasionally I will rock out at maybe close to 110db peaks, although with horns it is still so clean at this level it doesn't "hurt" like it would with most conventional systems.

"Then you ARE listening very loud often it seems"

you keep saying that, but it misses the main point. and maybe you just don't understand what I'm talking about. loudness is involved, but it's more a matter of control and lack of any effort. the music is freed up to just 'go' without any limits. there is a force behind the music that is palpable. if you reach amplifier limits by definition the music is no longer effortless. a key issue for that emotional connection.....and what we refer to as 'design envelope'. the ML3's have a clearly defined one (in my system). musically, with my darts there are no limits for music. the system easily exceeds any musical need without even breathing hard.

I don't play at really high SPL's, but I do play with the room fully energized but with enormous head room. which is how real life is too.

big music, but real.

 

[LL21]

"Then you ARE listening very loud often it seems"

you keep saying that, but it misses the main point. and maybe you just don't understand what I'm talking about. loudness is involved, but it's more a matter of control and lack of any effort. the music is freed up to just 'go' without any limits. there is a force behind the music that is palpable. if you reach amplifier limits by definition the music is no longer effortless. a key issue for that emotional connection.....and what we refer to as 'design envelope'. the ML3's have a clearly defined one (in my system). musically, with my darts there are no limits for music. the system easily exceeds any musical need without even breathing hard.

I don't play at really high SPL's, but I do play with the room fully energized but with enormous head room. which is how real life is too.

big music, but real.

Not to mention that even in real life, there are [apparently] instantaneous peaks that go well above 100db...take a look at this article about clanging metal in bowls, kitchens, etc. They cite but did not quite get to 110-115db for an instantaneous spoon being dropped on a plate...but did get to 100-105 several times with various pots/pans.

I can imagine in a sound system, there can be instantaneous peaks at these levels when cymbals are playing, etc. even when the base music is at 80db-85db.

http://canadianaudiologist.ca/common-transient-sounds-the-kitchen-is-a-very-noisy-place/

 

[spiritofmusic]

A nice circuitous route to the thread about do we use live unamplified as a reference.
If in real life a spoon hitting a plate is 105dB, where does that leave volume levels in a home audio system? I guarantee that no one is playing back cutlery at 105dB at home. And are the Darts naturally more adept at this playback phenomena than the Lamms?

 

[KeithR]

Consider now a 32 watt SET with a rather large power supply and it seems that there is probably a lot more going on than meets the eye. We never got the AC Diana (rated 25 watts) to audibly clip on a 91db pair of Thiel CS3.7s even though we were playing peaks well above 100db. I would argue that it could SEEM miraculous if you don't know what to expect from a topology.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/tubes-do-something-special-followup
https://www.stereophile.com/content/tubes-do-something-special-followup-part-2

The 8 watt SET was significantly more powerful dynamically than an amp that was a nominally 3x more powerful (25 watts) SS amp. Even a little 4 watt EL84 PP tube amp was nearly equal to the SS amp with a wider range choir and orchestra.

If you like distortion, sure.

 

[microstrip]

Not to mention that even in real life, there are [apparently] instantaneous peaks that go well above 100db...take a look at this article about clanging metal in bowls, kitchens, etc. They cite but did not quite get to 110-115db for an instantaneous spoon being dropped on a plate...but did get to 100-105 several times with various pots/pans.

I can imagine in a sound system, there can be instantaneous peaks at these levels when cymbals are playing, etc. even when the base music is at 80db-85db.

http://canadianaudiologist.ca/common-transient-sounds-the-kitchen-is-a-very-noisy-place/

Part of the question is always - at what distance? As far as I could see the article refers "Kitchen sink area at appr. 2 ft. distance". Not a typical listening condition!

Anyway since we have digital maximum levels can easily be quantified. IMHO the differences we perceive in amplifiers like the 458 or the ML3 are not only due to peak handling - it is a different type of sound, even at medium power.

Disclaimer - I have no real experience with the Lamm ML3.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, I may be able to spread some light on this question. At our last a’phile meeting, I discussed with several other members this exact question. Several of the members knew some of the dealers involved in some of the largest purchases along with most of the reps as well. The answer was that a large number of very high end pieces are sold to....
and you may not believe this....
“Non-audiophiles”!!

What happens is that the customer’s interior designer needs to fill a space and has a very large budget to do so. Or, the customer walks in off the street, no experience whatsoever, and happens to fall in love with the BIG Speakers and all the gear presented, has to have it—- and has the budget. Done deal at that time.
This is amazingly far more prevalent than we would believe. Applies to the typical Goldman Sachs customer and the well to do physician, etc. This explains the fact that these folks aren’t on the forums, or for that matter visible to us at all...as frankly they are not in this hobby.

Do you know of any brick and mortar dealer that is demoing the MM7’s, I don’t. OTOH, Goldmund was presented this way, and so is Wilson, Magico, etc.,

Yes Davey, I am not surprised by any of this. These guys don't have the time or interest to discuss audio, but they love music. Bob at Rhapsody told me this very thing. And it makes sense. I often think I spend way too much time here instead of doing other things. I once wanted to audition a smaller Evolution Acoustics speaker when I was making my last speaker purchase. I called the company and asked if there were any demo opportunities near Boston, or anywhere on the Eastern seaboard for that matter. Nope. So I moved on and looked at other brands. No, I have not heard of any MM7s being demoed anywhere. Of course, Ron travelled the world to audition super speakers before deciding on his Pendragons. Perhaps that is what is now necessary. I think one has to go to Magico to hear the M6s and Ultimates. I'm sure Mike would be accomodating if someone expressed an interest in buying a pair of MM7s. Perhaps there are a number of MM7s scattered around and we just don't know about them.

 

[KeithR]

Then you ARE listening very loud often it seems. Dave C was right about the peak levels you should get from the Lamms of around 112db...but that is assuming the rated 32 watts and not what Peter v W. demonstrated with the 8 watt SET getting 2.5x or more Volts (even more power) out. This means peaks probably closer to 120db are possible for "instantaneous" bursts. This is way above the levels I listen at, where peaks are normally not more than 100db (often a lot less)...occasionally I will rock out at maybe close to 110db peaks, although with horns it is still so clean at this level it doesn't "hurt" like it would with most conventional systems.

10% distortion at 32 watts is never gonna sound good...entire point of SET is using it at low power levels with declining distortion pattern unlike other topologies

 

[andromedaaudio]

The Zanden 7000 300 b is a complete differnt amp then the big mono amps. As is the lamm of course, but i think Regardless cat. Is more neutral. If that is what. One want s off course

 

[andromedaaudio]

To lll 21