ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
- Start date
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Mike
Why are you using extremes to make a point If taking the top off the music is important for you then have at it. In between what you have written I fail to read any deficiencies of the amp.
Why is taking the top end off something so important. Something you do when playing music you often like to comment at what the meters in your amps are peaking at. I am not sure if or whether that is important.
I have listened to the DartZeel 458's and Constellation Hercules in the same room driving the XLFs, as well as other tubes, such as ARC REF750's and 150's.
After hosting the Constellation Centaur II's and Virgo III only for a couple of weeks I still feel the same as Mike - I would love to own a tube system and a Constellation Audio system. High power, very transparent high quality amplifiers do it differently. However I would request two complete systems - assorted preamplfiers and amplifiers, surely!
Peter, I may be able to spread some light on this question. At our last a’phile meeting, I discussed with several other members this exact question. Several of the members knew some of the dealers involved in some of the largest purchases along with most of the reps as well. The answer was that a large number of very high end pieces are sold to....
and you may not believe this....
“Non-audiophiles”!!
What happens is that the customer’s interior designer needs to fill a space and has a very large budget to do so. Or, the customer walks in off the street, no experience whatsoever, and happens to fall in love with the BIG Speakers and all the gear presented, has to have it—- and has the budget. Done deal at that time.
This is amazingly far more prevalent than we would believe. Applies to the typical Goldman Sachs customer and the well to do physician, etc. This explains the fact that these folks aren’t on the forums, or for that matter visible to us at all...as frankly they are not in this hobby.
Do you know of any brick and mortar dealer that is demoing the MM7’s, I don’t. OTOH, Goldmund was presented this way, and so is Wilson, Magico, etc.,
Well... you would be limited to ~112 dB peaks with the Lamms.
My system is ~102 dB and I have about the same limits with my SET amp, it's true that a more powerful amp can be an advantage at times. Rarely, but it can be. With the MM7s I'd expect they can actually use a couple hundred watts. You may need ear protection but they can probably produce some high SPLs.
My system is ~102 dB and I have about the same limits with my SET amp, it's true that a more powerful amp can be an advantage at times. Rarely, but it can be. With the MM7s I'd expect they can actually use a couple hundred watts. You may need ear protection but they can probably produce some high SPLs.
No. I am mainly addressing tubes versus SS high quality, very high power. SET Lamm can sound excellent, but can not be miraculous.
Steve,
really? anyone who attends live orchestral concerts or large venue rock concerts, or even big band, can hear how dynamic and large scale music can become. these are things that past a certain point the ML3's cannot get to. the only question is whether it's important to the listener to get past that point.
your dismissal of that aspect of music is unfortunate......and......
This is not my personal experience. Most of the buyers that I have encountered do not obsess about talking about audio equipment, although they pretty much all have had high end audio systems for most of their lives.
In the last 20 years I have never sold one big $$$ system to someone wanting to fill a space or just walked in and bought it for it's size. I've sold a few high end systems each of the last 20 years, probably 50+ BIG systems total. Everyone of those systems were sold to usually very successful people who loved to listen to music. They just don't obsess about talking about gear, but they do love listening to music.
I'm not saying that the people in the audiophile meeting and their dealers/friends have not sold the way you describe, it's just that for me that has not been my experience. Actually I wish I could find buyers that would want to "fill a space", that would be great, but it hasn't happened to me.
I've also never sold one big time system to a Goldman Sachs or any other Wall Street guy. I've sold smaller systems to the Wall Street guys, but not big time systems.
the answers to these type questions are never simple.
I'd say marketing is one significant issue. Evolution Acoustics has not been much of a brick and mortar brand. MM7's have never been displayed at a show. so they are not well known, and little has been done to promote them. Evolution Acoustics is little known in Europe or Asia. they have not been to Munich. and they are visually not changed since the MM3 was introduced in late 2005. and it's so hard to define 'sexy' when it comes to speakers, or any product. what goes into making a product a subject of conversation.
there have been zero magazine reviews, or even web hifi reviews either.
secondarily, maybe the visuals of the speaker are not as easy to blend into a room as some others. the massive size and reddish color maybe is polarizing to some degree. big black boxes, or more svelte type cabinetry is easier to appeal to a wider audience. the build quality is first rate, and the customer support is outstanding. and obviously they perform and offer such a wide array of attributes and system synergy advantages.
for whatever reason, all they do is sound better than just about any other speaker......and that seems not to be enough to be a difference.
Mike,
In my experience of having the MM3s (+Exact) in th store for almost 3 years, the main problem was not so much the size, but the red color. I've had long conversations with Jonathan (and Kevin) about this, so hopefully something will be done. It was almost a clean 50/50 split when folks came to the store and listened, some preferring the Evolutions, and others preferring the other speaker line. But almost 100% of them said they'd have problems bringing the Evolution home becausee of the red color. I've had folks who couldn't even manage the Micro Ones, because they were "too red" as well...
Of course I don't agree with all that, but that's been my experience. Hopefully something will be done, and our beloved speaker line will get the respect it deserves
As for your LAMM situation, I completely get it. It's not about "which one's best", but "what do I want to listen right now?" Having multiple setups in the store gives me this freedom and possibility, so I totally understand you wanting to have the same at home. But I guess it's in the nature of this forum, if not the hobby, to find an absolute best...
In my experience of having the MM3s (+Exact) in th store for almost 3 years, the main problem was not so much the size, but the red color. I've had long conversations with Jonathan (and Kevin) about this, so hopefully something will be done. It was almost a clean 50/50 split when folks came to the store and listened, some preferring the Evolutions, and others preferring the other speaker line. But almost 100% of them said they'd have problems bringing the Evolution home becausee of the red color. I've had folks who couldn't even manage the Micro Ones, because they were "too red" as well...
Of course I don't agree with all that, but that's been my experience. Hopefully something will be done, and our beloved speaker line will get the respect it deserves
As for your LAMM situation, I completely get it. It's not about "which one's best", but "what do I want to listen right now?" Having multiple setups in the store gives me this freedom and possibility, so I totally understand you wanting to have the same at home. But I guess it's in the nature of this forum, if not the hobby, to find an absolute best...
I have been struggling with this question for a while. The truth is in this business sounding better that your competitors is NOT enough.
I agree the reasons are not simple. Consumers today have overwhelming amount of choice and overloads of information coming their way, much of it conflicting. This creates confusion leading to paralysis and dissatisfaction. In all areas of consumer goods there are a lot more companies popping up because of the changing marketplace. One example... In a recent episode of "Grand Tour", which is the new Top Gear and is on Amazon, they talked about new supercars. There are probably a dozen or so new brands competing with Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche etc that you've probably never heard of. In general, it's getting easier to start a business due to several factors... two of the largest include internet marketing and the availability of technology to the general public at low prices. In the last several years I've purchased measurement gear including o-scopes, calibrated mics, gear to measure speaker drivers, caps, inductors etc. that would have been prohibitively expensive a few decades ago.
Also, working for other companies doesn't have the benefits or security it used to have, which is tilting the balance in favor of starting your own business. For the short time I worked in the corporate world insecurity is the largest issue. The lack of commitment and trust between employers and employees makes this an adversarial relationship with employees totally willing to go work for their competitors for a decent raise. No pensions anymore, etc... It's just not a pleasant environment here in the US anymore. If I lived in Europe working for another business seems like a much better deal. I really enjoyed working in Denmark for a Danish company and might still be doing that if I was Dane living in Denmark. Here in the US? Most companies have a poisonous corporate culture I'm unwilling to deal with.
Mike,
In my experience of having the MM3s (+Exact) in th store for almost 3 years, the main problem was not so much the size, but the red color. I've had long conversations with Jonathan (and Kevin) about this, so hopefully something will be done. It was almost a clean 50/50 split when folks came to the store and listened, some preferring the Evolutions, and others preferring the other speaker line. But almost 100% of them said they'd have problems bringing the Evolution home becausee of the red color. I've had folks who couldn't even manage the Micro Ones, because they were "too red" as well...
Of course I don't agree with all that, but that's been my experience. Hopefully something will be done, and our beloved speaker line will get the respect it deserves
As for your LAMM situation, I completely get it. It's not about "which one's best", but "what do I want to listen right now?" Having multiple setups in the store gives me this freedom and possibility, so I totally understand you wanting to have the same at home. But I guess it's in the nature of this forum, if not the hobby, to find an absolute best...
Yup, industrial design is the #1 priority in this business... It doesn't matter so much how it sounds if people won't put it in their home!
I've been realizing this with cables and I now understand I've been shooting myself in the foot by not conforming to expectations on what they should look like.
Great points Mike. I would also say that the designer/owner of the company does not play the "game" very well. Maybe Alon Wolf has a marketing course he can attend.
Not to take this thread off on a tangent but what you said is so true. I see this in the financial services industry every day. I have worked for the same company for 35 years but I am a rare breed at this point. It is a free-for-all and the millennials are making it even harder.
Mike, I consider the MM7s to be absolutely state-of-the-art and among the very best loudspeakers available today. I think when I write my little personal SOTA favorite speaker list I usually write “Rockport Arrakis, Genesis Prime, Gryphon Kodo, VSA Ultra 11 and EA MM7.”
And that’s never even having heard the MM7s. That is simply on the basis of the MM3 Exacts which I thought sounded remarkable and which Steve and I (and many other people) gave best sound of the show two years ago in Los Angeles.
When a member here asked me for advice on a four column loudspeaker system I said “you have to audition the big Genesis, the Kodos and the MM7s.”
Maybe the question is not why aren’t more MM7s sold. Maybe the question is how many of all types of these monster four column systems are sold? I would think the aggregate number is pretty small.
And that’s never even having heard the MM7s. That is simply on the basis of the MM3 Exacts which I thought sounded remarkable and which Steve and I (and many other people) gave best sound of the show two years ago in Los Angeles.
When a member here asked me for advice on a four column loudspeaker system I said “you have to audition the big Genesis, the Kodos and the MM7s.”
Maybe the question is not why aren’t more MM7s sold. Maybe the question is how many of all types of these monster four column systems are sold? I would think the aggregate number is pretty small.
Dont agree , the Guy who bought some of my cheaper speaker designs brought a Nad amp , sounded Nice on the XPE s.
I d go expensive speaker cheap amp anytime .
Regarding. MM7 not getting enough attention. I guess they need to advertise more , go on more shows.
I d go expensive speaker cheap amp anytime .
Regarding. MM7 not getting enough attention. I guess they need to advertise more , go on more shows.
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