Hi Micro, i also suspect many of us listen at louder than 80db and probably have music that might be 'base position at 80db...but in truth in terms of true instantaneous peaks...would there be tracks which would potentially peak above 100-105db if the system were absolutely limitless in its capacity to meet the transient? i suspect so.
ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
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Hi Micro, i also suspect many of us listen at louder than 80db and probably have music that might be 'base position at 80db...but in truth in terms of true instantaneous peaks...would there be tracks which would potentially peak above 100-105db if the system were absolutely limitless in its capacity to meet the transient? i suspect so.
Magico has great marketing. And buyers pay for that. So does Wilson. However, in the end, don't most of us actually listen to the speakers before we decide what to buy? Believe it or not, many people do in fact like the sound of Magico speakers. The great reviews certainly help.
which Magico speaker? there are so many. not saying that there is not someone who likes each one. or did at some point.
compare resale values of the Evolution Acoustics to any brick and mortar brand. not close. the value proposition is undeniable. same speaker; now 13 years later, and still relevant and competitive performance wise.
sexy? maybe not as......
nothing wrong with the brick and mortar distribution model, or the direct model. each have their strengths and value proposition for customers. and downsides too.
Mike, I completely get where you are coming from. Limitless dynamic potential is an underappreciated aspect of certain types of music. In your large room with your speaker capabilities, I would not want to limit them in any way with insufficient power. I understand why some have other priorities or don't value this quality as much as you do.
You have been quite clear about this subject and I don't really understand why so many people are questioning it.
Mike, I don't think this is the thread to discuss particular Magico speakers and resale values. I was simply responding to Jeffrey's comment about Alon Wolf's marketing prowess. You can PM me if you want. Happy to discuss it.
The good thing is that most of my listening is at reasonable levels. I often re-calibrate myself using the recording bellow. I have found that this recording really sounds great at the recommended realistic levels, but they are a few dB's somewhat louder than my usual level for this type of music.
I have found that most times the limitation for perceived maximum loudness with decent quality quality comes from the listening room and conditions, not the equipment.
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I don't think it's necessary to listen at a high db level. I think most systems are capable of bringing the music closer to the listener. Now some members might not have that as a goal,but it can be thrilling as the power of a full orchestra is unleashed. The degree of intimacy tends to be recording dependent and would put different power requirements on amplifiers. As an example RCA and London Phase 4 tend to mic'd closer than say a Reference Recording. Athough system resolving and total noise floor level has been key in my system.
I think recordings have a volume level they sound best at which depend on room acoustics and maybe some other stuff, and I'd agree that a large majority of music doesn't need to be played loud and doesn't sound best extremely loud anyways. However... some recordings do benefit from high SPLs. 
I totally get what Mike is talking about with unlimited dynamics. It is also called upon even at low level listening. There have been many times I have started a track on that rig and thought it was not loud enough but by the time it was over HOLY COW!
The depressing part about that is it lets me know that my rig severely lacks the dynamics.
It is the system getting out of the way and letting the music go where it needs to.
Steves system does the same thing but his room is less than half the size of Mikes, so I can see the potential of the Lamms running out of sack to pressurize that room.
But in their element the Lamms, to me, are glorious sounding and look forward to another Xander trip once the AS2000 is comfy.
On the subject of Marketing, never heard of them until I saw them with Dart at THE Show and was impressed, but never hear anything else ever until Mikes place.
I will keep quiet on the looks of other brands of speakers(I have issues), but have always liked the looks of the MM7's and like the wood color choice.
That being said, the limited finish options, would limit sales, especially if a Interior Destroyer is involved. Speakers are their number one no no. Another subject for another issue. MM7's in Piano Black, hell yes!
Last but not least, and I agree with RON, 4 towers is probably the game changer. Even two ginormous towers are easier to pull off in an actual living space where people would congregate, but throw in a couple racks of 15 inch woofers, now its a music room.
In the end the MM7's sound every bit as good as any of the other big boys I have heard and am surprised that more people don't have them, on the other hand I know in less that an hour drive I could be sitting in a brick and mortar listening to any number of Wilsons.
The depressing part about that is it lets me know that my rig severely lacks the dynamics.
It is the system getting out of the way and letting the music go where it needs to.
Steves system does the same thing but his room is less than half the size of Mikes, so I can see the potential of the Lamms running out of sack to pressurize that room.
But in their element the Lamms, to me, are glorious sounding and look forward to another Xander trip once the AS2000 is comfy.
On the subject of Marketing, never heard of them until I saw them with Dart at THE Show and was impressed, but never hear anything else ever until Mikes place.
I will keep quiet on the looks of other brands of speakers(I have issues), but have always liked the looks of the MM7's and like the wood color choice.
That being said, the limited finish options, would limit sales, especially if a Interior Destroyer is involved. Speakers are their number one no no. Another subject for another issue. MM7's in Piano Black, hell yes!
Last but not least, and I agree with RON, 4 towers is probably the game changer. Even two ginormous towers are easier to pull off in an actual living space where people would congregate, but throw in a couple racks of 15 inch woofers, now its a music room.
In the end the MM7's sound every bit as good as any of the other big boys I have heard and am surprised that more people don't have them, on the other hand I know in less that an hour drive I could be sitting in a brick and mortar listening to any number of Wilsons.
It’s a little surprising to me that Mike feels that the Lamm’s run out of juice when called to reproduce very high spl’s. This was certainly not the case when I heard the amps at Steve’s place. In fact, I thought the dynamic envelope that the Wilsons elicited with the ML3’s was one of the best I had heard. The Lamm’s seemed to coast along with no sweat on his big Wilson’s. So, even though I am sure Mike’s room is a lot larger than Steve’s, I would question whether there is something else at work here, something that is holding the ML3’s back. The Wilson’s that Steve uses are a pretty benign load, I wonder if the MM7’s are actually not so benign. Perhaps there is something of an impedance mismatch or some such thing??
Steve, have you ever wished for higher head room in your SQ. ...I doubt it.
Steve, have you ever wished for higher head room in your SQ. ...I doubt it.
Mike, if you are playing only simple stuff at say 85ish db, is there any difference between the soar and rise of the baritone's or the tenor's voice? Does the Lamm keep control of the speakers to let the vocals soar through? Does it keep the same control during the swell of the orchestra at mid-volumes? Also are the energy levels similar on piano and on quieter orchestral passages?
Davey, I think your reference for ease and authority at high SPL's needs some work. you are welcome to visit anytime and we can fix that.
and there is nothing wrong with the Lamm's performance in my system, just that at 32 watts they cannot compete with 550 watts on specific recordings of some types of music. on other music that 32 watts is plenty fine. it's just physics.
and well....er.....the Lamm's, to my ears, are noticeably (but not night and day) more dynamically capable in my system compared to my recollection of Steve's system, as they should be with a 3db easier load and not needing to power bass below 40hz. those are significant advantages for a modestly powered tube amplifier. of course, this is just my aural memory, and what we see 'on paper'. YMMV.
and Steve does not have a top flight solid state alternative to compare to the Lamm's in his system. so my comments of my comparison really are not relevant to how Steve views this. he has no reference for the difference. if he were to try some solid state alternatives that were without power limitation and see what that result showed him, then we would have a basis for discussion. right now it's just guessing. absent a real world test, who knows what Steve might find?
and i'm not saying he should do that, as he is thrilled with what he is hearing now. no reason to go there. but if we are using our perception of Steve's system as evidence of 'well enough' then I would challenge that idea compared to what a top level solid state amp can do.
i'm not being critical of Steve's system or trying to stir the sh*t either. you have opened this door and i'm trying to be honest about how this plays out.
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I don’t think in some ways it works that way with ss vs tubes. My 45 watt tube amp plays louder and with more punch than my 250 watt/ ch ss amp! How is this possible, because it depends on other variables, tube headroom vs ss headroom, transformer capability, matching of the impedance to the transformers and on and on.
So, in Steve’s case, he gets plenty of grunt with his ML3’s and his speakers in his room....so much so, that when I visited him, we turned off the subs...as I felt they were not needed. The Lamm’s have plenty of bottom end drive with his Wilson’s. If I’m not mistaken, you are only using the Lamm’s to drive the mid/treble panels of your MM7’s, this should be an easy enough load...or maybe not. I don’t know how loud you like to listen, but I would have a hard time believing that you would want to sit in Steve’s room and proclaim he cannot get enough headroom or volume.
You talk about ease and authority, I recently listened to a pair of the new Alex’s with the D’Agostino amps...only 300watts/ch...and at volumes that would disturb the neighbors...down the street! The ease and authority these had was pretty good, but certainly not in anyway impressive to me...or more so than what I heard at Steve’s with the very same amps as you are using....but not the preamp...hmmm.
the Lamm's are in perfect control within their design envelope. until they run out of gas they separate things and allow full note development and keep the soundstage organized. so yes, nuances are fully rendered and delicate differences are clear. vocals are even more distinct with the Lamm's. more holographic. piano's have this uber continuousness with the Lamm's and subtle things seem to become more profound and compelling.
the Lamm's get that swell and flow of the orchestra just right; it's real and pulls you in.
i'd say that in some ways the big darts render more broad soundstage information, more granular details, but i'd also say that the Lamm's seem to reveal more drum skin textures, and fine differences in cymbals and high hat tonality. so just different characteristics. and overall the bass is more weighty with the Lamm's. maybe the best reproduced bass I have heard anywhere......up to the point where they run out of gas.
a hard time believing that you would want to sit in Steve’s room and proclaim he cannot get enough headroom or volume.
I am not saying any such thing. you are putting words in my mouth. 'enough' is a relative word related to personal needs. enough for Steve? obviously yes. enough for Davey? obviously yes.
leave my opinions and system out of it and I will not go here. but choose to relate your perceptions of Steve' system to my perceptions, and you are asking me to relate the two......which I did.
I suppose I should have just ignored your post, and not gone down this road.
Mike, what you described above is pretty much how I hear the differences between a great tube amp and a great ss amp. They do indeed have different flavors. When you talk about running out of gas with the tube amp, I think you must be talking about VERY high spl’s indeed! One thing that I think most of us would agree with is that a tube amp isn’t going to have the same kind of slam in the bass as a great ss amp. However, since you are utilizing the active bass panel amps for that purpose, I wouldn’t think that should be in effect as to this limitation. This is what puzzles me...the Lamms should have no trouble driving your mid/tweet panels to full capacity.
In my early reply to this thread I asked Mike if he was planning to use the Lamms with only certain types of music. In light of his experiences with the top of of the line Berning 211/845 amp in his system it was in my view to be expected that the Lamms would run out of steam with (very) demanding music pieces in his set up.
My set Kagura’s (which are clearly stronger than the Lamms (if you take the nominal watts into consideration) sound much more powerful and dynamic after three Tripoint master reference mk ii were inserted in my system. And with much I really mean much. Apart from all other benefits this additional (perceived) power might exactly be what you need for the Lamms. But apart from the additional power your system will be elevated to a level you have never experienced before with this new ground cable. It is a majestic piece of audio equipment.
My set Kagura’s (which are clearly stronger than the Lamms (if you take the nominal watts into consideration) sound much more powerful and dynamic after three Tripoint master reference mk ii were inserted in my system. And with much I really mean much. Apart from all other benefits this additional (perceived) power might exactly be what you need for the Lamms. But apart from the additional power your system will be elevated to a level you have never experienced before with this new ground cable. It is a majestic piece of audio equipment.
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